Moms in Sales — Mothers in B2B Outbound

1:12Dominka: Our topic today: moms in sales, or mothers in sales. What the challenges are, how you bring work and being a mother into harmony, what the parallel between sales and motherhood actually is, and what you can learn from your kids. For example, negotiation skills.

1:39Marija: Patience. Practising patience.

1:42Dominka: Exactly. Okay, Marija, would you like to introduce yourself again very briefly for our audience, so people know exactly who you are, what you do with us and how long you've been with us?

Marija: Nope, I don't want to.

Dominka: You have to, though.

1:54Marija: No, joking aside. Yes, gladly. So, I'm Marija. I've been at OB2B more or less from the beginning, since 2016, I think. Yes, exactly, 2016. And in that time I've actually done quite a lot in the company: I worked as a BDR, as a project manager and also in internal sales. But in the meantime I had three children, so I was away for a while and then back here, and away for a while and back here, and then away again. And now I'm back.

2:26Dominka: I think this is also really interesting for a lot of mothers out there who don't know themselves how to bring it all into harmony. So motherhood, and then one child, the second, the third. Within six years, seven years?

Marija: Seven.

Dominka: Okay. Every time, you came back to work between the children. I think there were always about two or three years between the kids.

Marija: Exactly.

2:51Dominka: What was it like the first time?

2:54Marija: Coming back? Yes, emotionally hard. But it's just a great company and a great working atmosphere, and we're all very flexible here, which I think is great. Because then you can combine everyday life with the kids and all the things you have to do during the day really well. Actually, I think it's harder for us mothers to send the kids to kindergarten and come back to work than it is for the kids. With the second child it was already easier, because I basically knew: He'll be fine in kindergarten, and I'll be fine at work. And when I come back and when they come back, then we have the time to really have fun and enjoy the time. And now with the third, we'll see. I haven't started working again yet, but I plan to do it soon.

3:49Dominka: You plan to, okay. In any case, to everyone at our company who gets wind of this. Tell me, maybe quite interesting, the comparison between the first and the second comeback: Was it harder to come back the first time, because it's the first child? Or was it maybe even harder the second time, because you thought, maybe I'll struggle to keep up even more now, because I actually have two kids at home? Or can't you really say?

4:19Marija: No, I think it's individual. But for me the first time was harder, because somehow I wasn't ready yet to leave my child at home, or rather in kindergarten, and come back to work. But the second time it was already: Oh, I'd like to talk to people now who aren't children, so with grown-ups who have nothing to do with children and who just talk about the world and everything that's going on, whatever. Because when you're only with children all day, you miss that touch with grown-ups.

5:03Dominka: Okay, good. You may be touching on the first segment we'd like to talk about today, and that's above all the language of kids, or negotiating with the child. Could you maybe bring that back to work, to negotiating with the client? Did you learn anything from it, or could you maybe give a tip for sales?

5:26Marija: Yes, I think that we parents … well, with us, negotiations really happen every day, all day, from early in the morning until late in the evening. That's why I think that we, especially the mothers, have a lot of negotiation skills, and you can use that in sales. Because the kids just don't want to do what you have to do or should do right now. Early in the morning they don't want to get up, they don't want to go to kindergarten, and you have to go to work. And there's no point losing your nerve here and shouting, because it doesn't get you any results. And that's how it is in sales too. You can't just talk someone's ear off and say: "Yes, I have such a great product, you have to listen to this," and then talk about it for half an hour. The first thing you have to do in sales is simply listen to the person, so that you hear what their problems are. And then really address the emotions the person brings. And it's the same with the kids. So if he says he absolutely wants to wear shorts, and it's snowing outside: I can't talk him into putting on long trousers now. Okay, then shorts on.

6:40Dominka: Do you actually do that? Do you let him go out in shorts?

Marija: Yes, and then he sees that it's cold, and looks and says: Okay.

Dominka: Good, so a bit of a shock tactic, right?

6:48Marija: Yes, but that's how it is in sales too, isn't it? You have to somehow find the balance between being a bit cheeky and still really listening to the person. What I basically wanted to say is that you … I forgot … bold.

7:11Dominka: That's one of our words that we use too: Be bold, yes.

Marija: Exactly, exactly.

Dominka: Simply being a bit daring.

7:18Marija: Exactly. So you have to dare to be a bit daring in sales, in business development, so that you keep a bit of distance from the competition. Because if ten people are telling the same thing, then you somehow need a difference. And if I'm a bit daring now and maybe a bit cheeky, but still make sure that I really listen to the person, what their problems are, and then address those problems and say: "Yes, exactly this product can help you, because of this and that," then it goes down much better than if I called him and talked on the phone for half an hour. Because I'd be the first person who wouldn't even listen. I'd just hang up: No, thanks.

8:02Dominka: So that thing with the shorts, at first I thought: What's wrong with you? Why do you let the child go out? But it really is a kind of tactic where you say: Hey, then learn it yourself.

Marija: From experience.

8:16Dominka: Exactly. And maybe that's not always something you should push onto the client directly, but maybe onto colleagues, or onto people who are afraid of making cold calls or of stepping out a bit at all when it comes to sales. Then you say: Hey, just try it differently. Just try it with emailing, then you'll simply notice that the emails don't come back that often, and then maybe you'll sit down at the phone again after all, do a bit of prospecting and talk to people. So that's definitely a kind of tactic with the shorts, the short-pants tactic, you can take that away with you. As something where you're supposed to burn yourself a bit, but then really learn from it what's better for you.

9:09Marija: Yes, you always learn best from experience. Someone can tell you how to do sales, but in the end you have to find your own way, try it out and see what works best for you. And you can see that in our company too: We're so many different personalities, and even though we actually had the same training at the start, everyone somehow has their own style of selling. And it works differently for everyone. What works for one colleague doesn't work so well for another.

9:39Dominka: Do you feel that something changed for you in sales, between the time before you were a mother and now that you're a mother? Did you maybe become different there, too?

9:50Marija: I don't know. I think so. Well, you change as a person, and that's reflected in every phase of life, personally as well as professionally. And I think that this patience and the negotiation skills and the fact that you really have to listen better, those are three things that work very, very well in parenting and in my sales too. And maybe that wasn't so pronounced before.

10:31Dominka: Do you feel you used to be a bit cheekier than now? Or maybe that's not the right word. Maybe before you were more like: I'll just push through, whatever happens. Or are you now more the one who doesn't think that much and just does it?

10:50Marija: I think now, rather. Because I already have so much experience behind me, and you can't force some things. If someone doesn't want to, then they don't want to, and you can tell them whatever you like. Then it simply makes more sense to give up there, or maybe not give up, but try again in a few months. But it just makes more sense to contact someone else now, where there's a bigger chance that they'll bite.

11:17Dominka: Okay, good. When it comes to patience: patience with kids and patience with a potential partner, whether it's when setting up a meeting or when closing a deal. You were always involved in both phases. Can you compare them? Is the patience more there with the kids, or do you give clients more patience? Or have you also learned over time to be a bit more patient?

11:53Marija: I think it's very individual. It depends on the person on the other end of the line, or on who's sitting across from you, or on the child. Because every client is different, every child is different. With one child I may have more patience, with another less, because they're different personalities, and it's the same with the different clients. There are clients you always have to guide a bit, somehow in one direction. With others you just have to say: Yes, okay, whatever you say. There you mustn't be cheeky, not bold, but you really have to do everything they want, because that's how they want it. They don't want any creativity, they only want it the way they want it. What I've seen: When someone hired us and then didn't want us to make it a bit more creative and give them tips, but only the way they had specified, maybe even wrote the script and everything, then we said: Yes, okay, we'll do it the way you want. And then they also saw through experience that it doesn't work. I think you still remember: We once had a project like that, and you and I put a great, great, great deal of thought into how we could make the project better. And the client didn't want to change anything at all. They had to read out word for word what he had said. And when, after two, three months, we said: "Let's try our script for one week, please," he said yes, and then it worked. We were patient for a very long time there, and after a while we said: Yes, but I don't want to be patient anymore, let me show you that it works better the way we do it. And it was great that the client then said: Yes, go ahead. After that we still had a long collaboration.

13:50Dominka: I'd say the client was very childish.

Marija: Yes, could be.

Dominka: Yes, there are also …

13:55Marija: But it's hard, too. I can understand him as well. It was his product, he was convinced of it, he also invested a lot of time in the script, and he first had to admit to himself that the script doesn't work. That's a long road you have to walk before you say: What I did doesn't work.

14:13Dominka: But that's exactly like the shorts. It's the same thing, because, look: We're actually the ones who should set the approach. We're the professionals in this whole thing. We create the approach in pre-sales. Your product can be as good as no other. The shorts can be the most beautiful in the whole world, but the weather outside is just freezing cold. You shouldn't put them on now. That's a great comparison. That was totally childish of the client: someone who has a sentiment about his product and doesn't really know the market properly yet doesn't let us explore the market. When what we're actually saying is: Hey, this is how it should be done, let's go out with it.

15:07Marija: Yes, true. But you can't do that right away if he isn't ready for it. You just have to be patient there, step by step.

15:17Dominka: Yes, but by now, I'd say, yes. We've become a bit more mature there too.

Marija: Yes, okay. As a company.

15:23Dominka: Or as mothers too. Even as a person you always become a bit more mature. You didn't treat your first child the same as the third, did you?

Marija: Yes.

Dominka: It's the same with us now. We also grew in stages. Now, I'd say, when you even start doing something with clients, you should say very clearly: Hey, this is the approach, let's find a way together to really do it like this. And not let the client dictate how it should be done. I think a mother shouldn't let the child dictate what she has to do or how she has to be, either.

Marija: Yes, true.

Dominka: So, I'd say, a really good example, that thing with the shorts and the clients.

16:12Marija: That's now going to be our new principle.

Dominka: Fits like a fist on the eye (German saying: fits perfectly). Wonderful.

16:21Dominka: Patience takes practice. But do you feel that some people just can't be changed at all?

Marija: Yes, of course.

Dominka: And that patience then really doesn't play any role anymore?

16:36Marija: Yes, there are such people, of course, but you can't work with people like that.

16:41Dominka: Which of your three children is the one that tests your patience the most?

Marija: I wonder that myself.

Dominka: The second, probably, right?

Marija: The Middle Child.

16:49Dominka: The Middle Child, yes, okay. Then there are also middle-child clients like that: You may get in with them, but never really get out. They always somehow do their own thing. Do you think you still manage to find a common language with them, too?

17:06Marija: Yes, hard, but you just have to try, otherwise nothing comes of the collaboration. You have to find a common language. With some people it's harder, with others easier. But in the end: If he doesn't want to listen to us at all, then he won't get the results he hopes for either.

17:22Dominka: That's true. So I think it really is always a give and take.

Marija: It's also a matter of trust.

17:27Dominka: Yes, and that's also very important, especially with a new project, but not only once the project has come in, but already at the start of the relationship. In the last podcast too, the topic was objection handling, with Franjo, I really talked about how hard it sometimes is to change someone's mind when they simply have their own vision. But the good thing is: After a while they actually notice that maybe it can be done differently, and that's really a small success you can celebrate every time. We still have a client who actually wasn't excited about cold calling at all. He thought it didn't fit his concept at all. But he contacted us himself, because he'd heard from another client that it actually works quite well for them. And now he's already been with us for two years, even though he was really totally against this approach. I think that's a middle-child client. Where you really think: Okay, this is going to be hard, but we just step on the gas. And then there are also those clients who are on board right from the start, they really want it. And they put everything into it.

18:47Marija: Yes. And with them it always works best.

18:51Dominka: From your point of view, is that the first child or the last one?

Marija: Oh no, my kids aren't allowed to see this podcast.

Dominka: They won't know. They don't speak German anyway, do they?

Marija: Nope.

19:04Marija: Yes, okay. I'd also say, and I actually talk about this with mothers quite often, that the first child is somehow the one that follows the rules the most. Because it's the first: You have a lot of time for the child, and you have rules you set from the start, and there's no no and no but, because that's just how it is. It's something you don't change. Later, when you have several children, you just don't have the time to always really stick to the rules, and then: Do what you want. You simply take the easy road.

19:39Dominka: But you're already well practised. You simply already know where the whole thing is going, especially with the third child.

19:47Marija: A friend of mine gave a great example, an example with the whale. When the first child said: "The whale is a fish," the mom says: "No, that's not a fish, that's a mammal," and then she shows pictures and books and explains and explains. With the second child: "No, that's not a fish, that's a mammal. Full stop." Third child: "A whale is a fish." – "Yes, you'll learn that it's not a fish." I don't feel like explaining anymore. But in the end, the mothers I know who now have older children say that the third children always grow up very, very well as adults, because they learn a lot by themselves. They're not told: That's how it is. Instead they explore a lot themselves and learn a lot from experience. And I think that with clients and in the collaboration it's then always a balance too: between what we tell him, how much we help and how much we take from what he tells us or also specifies. Because you can't just say: No, what you're saying doesn't work, and that's it, we'll only do it this way. You always have to balance, and there are the emotions again. I can tell him that it doesn't work, but then he won't want to work with me anymore, because I've hurt his ego. So you do it step by step: Let's try this approach for a week, maybe another one, then we can put what you said into the script again, and so on. And then you work on him step by step and steer him in the direction you need, with these middle-child clients.

21:26Dominka: Okay. Then we're already at the third child, right? I hear it very often, you don't have to claim this now, but I've heard very often from mothers that the third child is kind of the favourite child, because you really don't have that much work with it. It's simply there, it's cute, and the siblings play with it too, they help out as well. I'd say that's the kind of client with whom you also find a common language most easily. You may already have a template for him, you've already gathered experience with other clients. Can you compare that? Are we allowed to do that?

22:10Marija: I don't know if we're allowed to do that. But as I said: Every child is different, every client is different. It sounds so worn out, but it really is always an individual approach that you have. Even though it's the same work, prospecting for clients with the phone calls, various emails and so on. Of course we have templates that we use, but in the end it's always individually adapted. And it's the same with kids. The same principle doesn't work with different children. For example, the first one always listens to rules: If I tell him bedtime is at 9, then he goes to sleep at 9. The second one says: No, no, no, no chance, I'm not listening to you. The third one has no idea yet what time it is. But what I wanted to say with that … I've lost my train of thought now.

Dominka: That's fine, you're allowed.

23:13Dominka: I always found it really interesting with you, your approach with difficult clients, especially in cold calling: how you always managed to really change their minds, or to show them with a completely ordinary example: Hey, I think you're wrong, and this can be done completely differently. Do you maybe remember a principle like that you brought in, where someone came at you with an objection and you had an answer ready right away? I think it helps you, of course, if you're the kind of person who outsmarts kids a bit. In a positive sense, I mean. You didn't outsmart anyone, because he did become a client, but objection handling is a bit like outsmarting.

24:09Marija: Yes and no, I don't know. Changing minds, rather. Yes, sure, you do try to get a yes out of the no. So it is kind of outsmarting, but outsmarting would somehow be the wrong word.

Dominka: I like it. Outsmarting, but with a positive connotation.

24:25Marija: Yes, okay. I can't think of a concrete example right now, but I know I did it quite often. That was the first point, active listening. Or rather the second, the first was a short introduction: why you're calling and what you want from the person. And then they very often say no immediately, even though they haven't really listened yet. If you then say, for example: "Yes, why, though?" or "What did I say?" or something like that, so if you shock them a bit with what you say, because they couldn't see it coming, then you get their attention. And then you have a kind of door opener: Once you have the person's attention, you really get into a conversation with them. And once you've managed to awaken these emotions in them so that they take the time to tell you concretely what their problem is, then you're at the next step, where you tell them: Yes, but I do have a solution for that.

25:32Dominka: And one example I know very concretely was the sentence: "So how would you do it?"

Marija: Oh yes, right.

25:45Dominka: That lets you outsmart the client right away, in quotation marks, because at that very moment you're doing exactly what you would do for the client. And I thought that was a really brilliant sentence, where you can then also say: Hey, you're seeing live what we would do for you. I'm not doing it badly, am I?

26:06Marija: True. Now I remember, that really was a great sentence, it worked very, very often.

26:12Dominka: Because it's actually the truth, too. And with the truth, I think, you always score best.

Marija: Of course, yes.

Dominka: If you really bring it live as an example, I think you're fully in the game.

26:22Marija: I think lying doesn't work at all, because I wouldn't even feel like thinking about whom I told what, so that it doesn't come out that it's a lie. So you just tell the truth, are a bit cheeky and try to find this balance: listening, I'll solve your problem now, but also showing you that I really know what I'm doing.

26:46Dominka: Do you lie to your kids?

Marija: No. "No more chocolate."

26:52Dominka: Do you manipulate a bit with the truth?

Marija: Yes and no.

26:56Marija: Especially early in the morning, when you have to leave the house at 6, or rather at half past 6, and it's: "I don't know what I want to wear." Then: "Blue or red?" And that's it. "You have two options."

27:12Dominka: Okay, yes, there's no other option. White lie.

Marija: Let's say it's democracy, but not total.

Dominka: Okay, wonderful.

27:25Dominka: Do you maybe have one more really concrete example for mothers, and fathers too as far as I'm concerned, who are thinking about whether they'd rather stay at home with the kids or go back to work? What creates this balance, how did you manage it yourself when you went to work and had two kids at home? Not yet with three, but the thing with two kids, that was your practice.

27:57Marija: Exactly, yes. Individual, once again. Personally, I'm someone who doesn't like being at home all day and only cooking and whatever. I like being among people and I like going to work. The first thing I had to settle with myself is that the kids are doing well in kindergarten. So it's not that we throw them into some group where they're unhappy, but they really have fun there and play with other kids. And when you then tell yourself as a mother: Yes, my kids are doing well, then you already have a first tick: Okay, now I'm ready to go to work, because I know they're doing well. What was also great for us: There are only two years between the first two, and they were together very often. Not in the same kindergarten group, but in the same building, and we did almost everything together. At the moment it's a bit more complicated, because one child goes to school and the other two to kindergarten, and then you have to go to different places.

29:05Marija: But how you find the balance in between: I'd say the first thing is you have to set priorities. You can't get everything done, because the day only has 24 hours.

Dominka: You have to sleep too.

29:20Marija: Exactly, you have to sleep too, although we parents can function without sleep. But yes, I'd say: Outsource tasks you don't have to do yourself. All kinds of machines you can use at home. Everyone has a dishwasher anyway, but, for example, buy a good dishwasher, no cheap stuff. The vacuum, the robot vacuum, that's such a great thing. I don't have to vacuum anymore. Not everything has to be ironed, as long as it's clean, and things like that. You can't think that you can live exactly the way you used to, because you actually have a lot more tasks but a lot less time. Personally, I like to do it so that when I come home, I really spend quality time with my kids, and, for example, I try not to touch my phone at all when I'm at home. The TV only goes on at a time we've agreed on, and then we really have two, three hours every day in which we really spend time together. And then there are other times again where we say: Yes, now we have to cook, now we have to clean and things like that. And we all do that together, then it goes faster. Then we're done faster and can, for example, play again. And we also give the kids tasks from an early age. Which is also great, because they're small tasks, for example taking the laundry out of the machine. That takes two minutes, but it means a lot to me, because they're two minutes I didn't have to spend on it. Someone else did it. A bigger kid can also hang up the laundry. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it's done. Outsourcing. And in the end they also get pocket money for it, and then everyone's happy. Win-win situation.

31:23Dominka: I think that's a very good example. It's maybe a bit harder if the job is in shifts, for people who don't have strict working hours, or for people who are self-employed. That can be a challenge again. But I think if you really have a job with fixed working hours, then you can actually plan it much more easily than otherwise, right?

31:48Marija: Yes, I think so. Although: You always have to be flexible, because you never know which child will have a fever in the morning. That's just how it is with kids, they constantly have colds, somebody's sick again. What I also think is great about this job: that we're flexible. It's no problem if, for example, I stay home for a day because a child is sick, because I know I can catch up on the work the next day. And you can't say that about every job. If I worked as a doctor, I couldn't afford to just stay home.

Dominka: Well, that works too.

32:31Marija: Yes, it works too, but not that often, I'd say. Somebody else can't just take over the work there.

32:39Dominka: Yes, you're speaking for yourself now and for the way things are set up for you. I think it's the case for most people, that they have a fixed job and can then manage it. But the conclusion, in any case, is: The kids come first. It's important that they're taken care of, and then it's also easier to really pursue the work, right?

32:59Marija: Yes, of course. Because if I'm constantly worrying about whether they're okay, then I can't concentrate on work.

33:06Dominka: Yes, good. Are you ready for a game?

Marija: A game?

Dominka: Yes. A game has been prepared for us. We always have a kind of Game Time. I don't know how often you've seen it with us, but there's always a little game in between.

33:20Marija: I mustn't say now that I haven't seen it, right. Of course. Every day I watch two episodes.

Dominka: No. Game Time: My contact is a child. My contact person is a child. That's what the game is called.

Marija: Okay. I find that interesting.

33:38Dominka: Let me read you the rules, so that I know myself what we have to do. It's about objection handling: typical objections from kids compared with the sales world. I'll read you five typical objections that kids would say. You have to answer as if you were talking to a potential client on the phone, so with professional sales techniques. Afterwards you can briefly explain why you chose that answer.

34:10Marija: Why? I don't get it. Do I talk like with the child or like with the adult?

34:15Dominka: No, I'll read you a childish objection, a typical kid objection, and you react to it as if I weren't a child. I'm the child now, …

Marija: Okay, got it.

Dominka: … whose mind you have to change, but whom you should talk to like an adult.

Marija: Oh right, I haven't talked to adults in so long.

34:33Dominka: Okay, so I'm the kid client now. Let's say I'm the middle child, the middle-child client. "I don't want that."

34:47Marija: What, though?

Dominka: Very good. "But everyone else is allowed to."

Marija: Yes, and?

34:58Dominka: "I don't feel like it."

35:01Marija: What for?

35:04Dominka: "I'll do it later."

35:06Marija: Yes, no problem. When can I call you?

35:10Dominka: "No, just no."

35:12Marija: Why no, though?

Dominka: "No, just no."

Marija: Yes, okay, then it's no, and then you go … no idea.

35:21Dominka: But I'm not a child! That was nothing.

Marija: Okay.

35:27Dominka: Good, the game was a complete success. Clients can often be compared with kids, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively. But on the whole you can say that as a mother and as a salesperson you're welcome to bring a lot of patience, you should be a bit cheeky, and now and then you may outsmart the client in a positive way, just like your kid, to reach the goal that's best for both, right?

36:10Marija: You've nailed it.

36:12Dominka: Good. Do you have one more tip on the side for everyone listening who doesn't know yet whether they should decide to go back to work or not? Or a tip on how you bring being a mother and sales into harmony? Just to wrap the whole thing up.

36:37Marija: I'd say: Just do what you think is best for you. Because not every decision is the best one at every point in time. Maybe at one moment you think it's best to stay at home, then just stay at home. And if you think it's better to come back to work, then come back to work.

36:56Dominka: And once more, very briefly, motherhood and sales: Are mothers the better salespeople?

Marija: Of course.

Dominka: Than fathers?

37:08Marija: Of course. Mothers are the managers at home, after all. So you can only be a good salesperson.

37:13Dominka: Yes. Do you think it also defined you, in that you maybe really got better at your work?

Marija: I was great before too, you know.

Dominka: I can only confirm that.

37:22Marija: No, I think so, yes, of course. Because, as I said, you need skills like negotiation skills and patience, and you have to be a bit playful. And if you combine and balance all of that well, then it just works better.

37:37Dominka: Good. Marija, that's it for today. Thank you so much for coming. Hopefully we'll see each other in the office again soon.

Marija: Yes, of course. Thank you.

Dominka: Bye.

Marija: Bye.