BDR Wanted: What Makes a Great Cold-Calling Pro?

4:23Dominka: Or can you maybe, I'm starting from the end now, but never mind, also tell right away, when you've invited someone for the first time: This one is really good, and he's going to be great? Or is it more that you say: I'm always skeptical, and it still turns out well, because I can step in?

4:43Martin: Well, I think you should always be skeptical. Even if you have a good male candidate or a good female candidate, and of course also if you have someone where you see: Okay, he has the potential to be better, at the moment it's not so good. There has to be a dose of skepticism, because you also have to recognize that actually everyone can always be better. Ultimately.

5:05Dominka: You just said: male candidate, female candidate. Is there a preference?

5:10Martin: Well, subjectively I'd say: yes. I always prefer working with female colleagues over male colleagues. But I also think that for selling, for the sales area, you really should have a fine sense of tact, listen well and of course also tell a good story. And I think women are mostly a bit better at that. But of course we also have male employees who are good at it.

5:36Dominka: Do you think women can package stories more nicely?

5:40Martin: I do think so, yes. Because they listen well. And that has also been confirmed.

5:45Dominka: Okay, good. Do empathy and sensitivity have something to do with you saying you prefer working with female colleagues?

5:54Martin: Definitely. If we're already talking about the hiring process, about working with male and female colleagues and ultimately also about the sales process: empathy, sensitivity and the like are of course important there. And there, I have to say, women are the top candidates for it. Because if we want to find out the pain points of, for example, our potential clients, then you really have to listen. And then of course you can pick the right pitch.

6:25Dominka: Okay. Good. But we don't want to generalize that. We definitely want to say: anyone who brings all of that and who isn't held back from taking a rejection will very likely be very good at this job.

6:42Martin: Right. Well, the way I see it: Sales and selling are actually made for everyone. Anyone can really do it, but not everyone is cut out for it. In other words, selling is an ability, a skill, that you have to acquire.

6:59Dominka: You know, it's actually always like that in life in general, in love stories and so on: when it comes to courting, it's actually more the men who take more rejections than the women.

7:17Martin: Could be, yes.

7:18Dominka: Is that also something you could transfer to the cold call? Would you say maybe it's easier for men after all to take it when you've just had three rejections in a row, and women somehow take it much more emotionally? Or do you think it's actually all the same for women, they're already cold about it, and it just doesn't matter because they can separate it?

7:43Martin: Nah, I'd say that maybe we experience it on the same level. I see it from my perspective. I also started out as a BDR with us, and I know that the first phone calls and really the first nos and "Don't call me again" and the like were really hard. Now I also have to be a bit serious and tell the truth: I sometimes came home from work in tears. Because I simply couldn't deal with how I can actually process a no, but ultimately also how I turn that no into a yes.

8:22Dominka: Okay. You wimp. Never happened to me.

8:26Martin: Yeah, now you can see it. So not all men and not all women have the same …

8:32Dominka: Yeah, but no, I'm lying there, of course. Of course it wasn't always easy after a whole day of making cold calls and getting really negative feedback and being treated totally condescendingly by the contact person, too. But for me it was actually always like this: It didn't trigger me to quit, but rather really: Okay, I'll show him yet. With that attitude. Not that I call him personally again tomorrow and say: Hey, now I'm really going to show you. But that I carry on with that attitude and say: Okay, it went like crap, but next time that won't happen to me again. Now I've got the experience anyway, with someone who probably wasn't a good potential client. And I think you also have to learn not only to take the rejection well, but also to learn from it and say: Yes, okay, maybe I did do something wrong after all, and maybe I should do it a bit better next time.

Martin: Exactly.

9:36Dominka: But if I did everything right and it still went wrong, from their side, then it's certainly not a good match. We'll just put that out there.

9:46Dominka: But there are certainly things where you say: That's maybe not the ideal BDR, but the optimal BDR who can be put to good use on this or that project. Those are the traits where you say: Hey, great, I can work with you, or actually anyone could work with you, and something can come of this or something will certainly come of it.

10:12Martin: Well, every BDR should definitely be communicative. That doesn't mean introverts are worse at communicating. I'd just say, if we go into this topic, that introverted people, for example, listen better. You shouldn't actually confuse shyness with being introverted. Because I know a lot of people, also from our office, who are introverted but can still communicate well, especially on the phone too. That's why, for me, being communicative is really a trait that's important for selling and also for the role of the BDR.

10:57Dominka: Don't you think being introverted and being extroverted is more something that shows more in private life than at work? A few years ago we did a little test, introvert, extrovert, just personality tests. And what actually came out was that a lot of people at our company are introverted. Half. And you'd never say that, given the skills they bring as BDRs or in sales.

11:32Martin: That would just mean that introverted people spend their time, especially their private time, differently than, for example, extroverts. I see it in myself. At work I'm very communicative too, I like going over to my colleagues, talking with them, making jokes or something like that. But when I come home, I place great value on having a bit of time for myself. Reading a book, watching a TV show, a film, or quite simply just listening to music and looking out the window. That I really have time just for myself, in which I'm not communicating with anyone else.

12:12Dominka: Do you think it's actually harder for an introvert to make cold calls than for an extrovert?

12:21Martin: I'd say yes. Not for everyone, but from a personal perspective I'd say yes.

12:29Dominka: Hm. I'd almost not agree with that at all. I somehow have a theory that extroverts may be people who find it much harder to accept a rejection than someone who's introverted. You know? Because extroverts are actually people who need the energy of other people to feel good. And introverts are more people who tend to push that energy away, because it's too much for them when they have too many people around them. When you're on the phone and doing it one on one and not surrounded by lots of people, then maybe it's more the optimal job for someone who wouldn't necessarily like to hold a meeting. I think someone extroverted who leads a meeting with several people maybe feels much more comfortable there than one on one with someone on the phone.

13:32Martin: Could be, yes. I think there really are many cases where you can say: yes or no. But I'd say what's a bit different for a BDR, especially in cold calling, compared to, for example, you with the meetings: You simply don't see the person. So part of the stress that comes from the reactions you'd see on their face is actually already gone. You only have the voice. The voice is of course also your tool, but also the tool you get from others, so that you can listen and then also see: Aha, okay, now I hear a bit of stress in the voice. Aha, now I hear that someone is in a good mood, and the like. And there I'm still of the opinion that introverted people get that better than extroverted ones, I have to say.

14:24Dominka: Okay. Because they're just constantly looking at people.

14:29Martin: Yes, looking or listening, yes.

14:32Dominka: Okay, fine, could be. I think both theories can be proven somewhere.

Martin: Definitely, definitely.

14:41Dominka: What are some other traits where you'd say: If you're thinking about working as a BDR and you recognize this in yourself, then you can say, yes, that fits? So: communicative. Introverted, extroverted is actually …

Martin: Doesn't matter.

Dominka: Doesn't matter.

15:02Martin: And on top of that, adaptability.

15:05Dominka: Okay. What does that mean?

15:07Martin: Especially in our job, we have different projects. They can of course also switch and change over time.

15:15Dominka: That's a good thing too, I think.

15:17Martin: Also good, yes. But in general now: As a BDR you have to be aware that the product changes. The target group sometimes changes too, and of course the market changes, and you have to react to these things in good time. So of course you also have to be adaptable.

15:36Dominka: That's true. But exactly what you said earlier: With us, we have different clients and client industries. And every now and then a project ends and you take on another one.

Martin: Exactly.

15:48Dominka: But every now and then a project stays with us for a very, very long time, and every now and then we switch the BDR on that project, because after a while it just turns out that a change should happen now. Because maybe it's also a bit better for the person to learn something new. It's a very varied job. And especially there I also think you should be able to adapt well and not always just take over the way the colleague before did it.

16:13Martin: Definitely. When you take over a project from a colleague, it's good to know the processes, that is, how it's been done so far. But I agree with you, of course that also brings in fresh air, an impulse to do something differently. A new employee on the project naturally brings a new perspective as well.

16:35Dominka: There's a partner of ours who hired a salesperson. For, don't quote me on this, but I think it's twelve years, he's been doing nothing but cold calling for them. And he loves it. It's always the same topic. Can you imagine that?

16:53Martin: Well, personally I can't, no. But I think there really are people who simply find their footing well in one topic, in the job too, at the workplace. And I mean, those people shouldn't actually change that either. And we, as employers and as people in leadership, should respect that as well. If someone really finds their footing well, they're also adaptable. That means after a while they see: Okay, that went well, but I think it can go even better. Or: Okay, now we have stagnation in the project, we can of course change that too.

17:31Dominka: What was actually the longest time a BDR worked for the same client with us? Do you know?

17:40Martin: I think two years, three at most, I'd say.

17:44Dominka: Without a change?

17:46Martin: Without a change, maybe even. I think two years max or so.

17:53Dominka: Yes, and then we ourselves can't say whether that's a length of time that maybe should be longer, too. But I think change also does you good. I think that's also something you should watch out for as an employer: When you've hired someone for cold calling at your company, that they do need some variety every now and then. Maybe a different topic, or shaping the whole thing differently again, introducing something new as a tool, or new client industries and so on. You do have to do something there. I think to call about the same topic for twelve years, you have to really live the product. You really have to be so enthusiastic about it, then it's like in a religion, you know?

18:41Dominka: Is there anything else you'd describe as a very important trait of an ideal, optimal BDR?

18:49Martin: We've actually already started on the topic: listening well. I think that's ultimately the most important thing, in my opinion, when you work in sales and also when you work as a BDR.

19:03Dominka: Can you already tell that when hiring a BDR?

19:07Martin: I'd say yes.

Dominka: How?

19:09Martin: In the job interview we always ask questions, of course. I ask, and you of course too, a few questions with which we first want to check whether the person can really do it, or what their experience in the last job was, and the like. But ultimately we also want to see: Are you listening, and can you give a good answer to it? Yes, no, sure are answers too, but you do have to say a bit more, because we always ask these open questions. I want to hear a bit more there, of course. And of course you should also take a bit of a look at the job ad. From that you can already expect which questions we might ask, and of course you have to take that into account. But of course always listen. That's the most important thing.

20:10Dominka: There are also job interviews where you get a lot of counter-questions from a candidate. Would you rate that as positive or negative?

20:22Martin: I never see counter-questions as something negative, but the type of question, that can be a problem. If, for example, I get a question about something that was already in the job ad, or that we already talked about in a phone call, or that you could read on our website or on LinkedIn or something like that, then I do ask myself: Okay, how much did you actually prepare, for the interview and also for the job? And then of course there are also questions like, we had a question like this the other day: What happens if in the first month I don't know whether this is a job for me? That already signals uncertainty in the job interview. And I think in sales, but also in a job interview, you do have to be self-confident and know what you want to do and where your career should go.

21:24Dominka: Can't you simply classify that as very cautious honesty and say: Okay, that was very cautious of you, maybe later you don't want to have to say yourself, if it's not going well on your side: Hey, I tried, that's it, I've found something else, and so maybe you want to put your cards on the table? Is that maybe a quality you could also read from it? Because it's actually a job where, when you come to us or to another company: You don't come to anyone as a finished BDR. That happens very rarely.

22:04Martin: Cautious, yes, you can interpret it that way. In my opinion, you should do that earlier. You have to ask yourself: Is this really a job for me? As you already said, we actually hire people who have no experience at all in sales or little experience in sales. And of course I agree with you there too: This really is a job where you learn something new every day, every month, every year.

22:32Dominka: So you would say the caution should lie with those doing the hiring, when someone comes with a statement like that, that they're a bit afraid of the job as a BDR?

22:47Martin: In my opinion, yes.

22:48Dominka: Okay. Great caution is called for especially then, I'd say, if you don't have a system of your own, like we do, to train people. We actually have a very good system that works, because we've tested it. And we have people who've been working with us for years and who've gone through this system with us.

23:12Dominka: Martin, you were a BDR yourself. That's true, right?

23:17Martin: Well, I started as a BDR, yes.

23:19Dominka: Exactly. Can you say what the difference is between the BDR you still were three, four years ago and the BDR today? Is there a difference, a change over the years? You can also take the biggest change from seven years ago until today.

23:41Martin: Well, I'd say the biggest changes since I started are actually the tools, which have of course made our lives a bit easier. Definitely. Also with automation, and just recently also with the AI option that you have now, of course. But what I'd also name as a positive change, along with the tools, is that we've improved the processes. And also that we've taken the time, that in this case I spend most of my time with the new colleagues and employees, so that they then really master the job well and the first weeks, months, they don't spend them alone, so to speak.

24:25Dominka: So you can say: The process the BDR has to follow every day is more automated and simpler. No more pen and paper and things like that, or an Excel spreadsheet and keyboard. But in terms of the BDR's work and cold calling, has reachability gotten worse, with the higher number of BDRs calling for different companies, with the higher demand for BDRs?

25:00Martin: Well, the demand for BDRs is still the same, or I'd even say bigger than before. Because companies still need employees who ultimately also sell the product. And competition has of course grown in every industry.

25:20Dominka: And you wouldn't say that in that respect it's become a bit harder for BDRs to really get through to the right contact persons, because a mass, a flood of bad BDRs is phoning around out there?

25:31Martin: No, not with us specifically, because we have good BDRs.

25:36Dominka: I know that. What I mean is: the competition maybe also spoils the market a bit, right?

25:41Martin: Yes, but then they stand out from the crowd.

25:44Dominka: Do you think it's good for us that there are bad BDRs who then show us in a better light again when we call?

25:50Martin: Well, generally no, because then of course nobody wants to talk to the BDRs. But if you're a good BDR, then of course you have a better chance of getting the contact person on the phone to ultimately talk to you.

26:04Dominka: But I've now heard several times, and I think this is a really nice practical example, that the way we prospect makes us stand out from the competition. That they had already received several calls from companies selling something very similar, but we did it in a way that made them want to keep talking.

Martin: Exactly.

26:35Dominka: But if you don't manage that once, if you're having a bad day, then you can certainly say it's annoying that ten others called before you. And you just happen to be the tenth, and now he doesn't feel like talking to us on the phone anymore either. That happens too, of course.

Martin: It does happen.

26:51Dominka: I actually got the feeling that doing phone prospecting is much harder than, say, five years ago, because a lot of calls come in and a lot of people are annoyed, much more annoyed than back then. But what I did notice: especially in times of crisis like Corona and so on, with phone prospecting it worked really brilliantly, because they were really keen to talk to someone who brings in a fresh perspective. And you should actually take that as an important trait too: that a BDR who makes the calls really gives perspective as well. That he tells the client: Hey, I'm here to help you. And maybe that's also this helper syndrome that you can take on board as a trait of a BDR. Okay, I'm here. I'm happy to help you. You somehow need something new, because otherwise maybe it isn't working well for you.

27:47Dominka: Onboarding and development of a BDR. Maybe very briefly, in rough points: What do you have to keep in mind when you get a diamond in the rough and want to polish it into a good BDR? What does the process look like? What's important, besides having someone who shows them how it's done? Presumably you have that, someone there who can teach you something. But what do I have to do? If I'm a company now and want to hire a BDR, I don't want to take an external agency like us, if I did, I'd take OB2B, but otherwise I'm not doing that now, I want to have someone in-house: What all do I have to do, and how long does it take until this person can really do it well on the phone? What's a rough estimate, how long does it take, and what are three, four points you have to keep in mind?

28:42Martin: Well, definitely, as you already said, you have to have a person who dedicates themselves to the new employee. Only then can it really work well. Of course you also need a plan, and actually everything starts with the plan. First the tools. You have to know: Which tools does the BDR need to do the job well? Then of course you have to show the BDR the tools and explain what the processes with these tools are. In our case you then of course also have to explain sales psychology and the tips and tricks, for example how to get past the switchboard, that is, the reception. You also have to know the objections. You should get a little cheat sheet like that: what you should actually do in sales, what you should avoid, and how you can turn something negative into something positive.

29:41Dominka: So you do have to put a lot of work into onboarding someone, for a topic that maybe sounds very simple to you, because you've been managing to sell it in sales for years, or you have a lot of inbound leads, or you just look after existing clients. Looking after an existing client and really doing cold calling are actually two different things. I think what's very important, when you've already given someone everything and say: Hey, look, this is what we sell, this is roughly how it has to sound, now we'll write a call guide together, maybe do a few test calls: what above all has to be part of it is really patience. And also consistency: that you stay calm when you hear mistakes. And that you stay calm when you know, okay, it's going to take a bit longer before there's any success. Cold calling is nothing that happens overnight.

Martin: Definitely.

30:41Dominka: That you book a meeting on the first call and that meeting then also turns out to be the ideal client happens now and then, but very rarely. And I think that's something you should also pass on to the listeners: Please, please bring lots of patience and expect the worst. And say: Hey, if it really goes very wrong, then we'll just try a new strategy. But don't give up right away because it's hard and because not much is coming in. Every beginning is hard, and cold calling especially is, I think, a very, very difficult thing. You actually have to make sure that the person doing it stays motivated to keep doing it. Even when it's not going so well right now.

Martin: Yes, true.

31:29Dominka: Where can you really go very, very wrong when selecting an employee? You absolutely want to have an employee who's a BDR. What should you watch out for? What are red flags?

31:44Martin: Well, a red flag would definitely be if you talk badly about your previous job in the job interview. And especially if you weren't asked about it. I've noticed that these aren't good signs. When you hire someone new and already hear in the job interview: Yes, there were these, these, these problems. But you don't actually know the objective situation at the last job the person had. I'd definitely call that a red flag. Second …

32:20Dominka: Maybe what you already mentioned earlier: with a negative attitude? Maybe he won't manage it at all.

32:26Martin: That too. With some you can already notice whether they came into the interview motivated. Because someone who has prepared already has a good deal of motivation behind them. With some you can already see it: Okay, this is the fifth or sixth job interview I'm having, and the job I get, I get. That's why you always have to ask: Why did you apply for this position? And what would you bring to the company you're now applying to? What have you learned and done in the past, and how would you now use that here at the new company?

33:09Dominka: You know what I'd also pass on as a red flag? When someone tries really hard to show off with their results. You have to prove that first. I think when someone comes in and thinks they know everything about it, and comes along with an attitude like, hey, this should actually be done like this and so on: Save it for later, right? Show it once you're in. Then just show what you can do. Maybe you can do it better than all of us put together. Maybe you can bring in some fresh air. But I think that's nothing you should do in a job interview, especially in sales. Because there has to be a bit of charm involved. We can actually already tell from the conversation whether someone has what it takes or not. But when he tells you: I brought in this and that, I did this and that for the last partner, then I always think: I don't know that at all. That could also be completely made up.

34:15Martin: Exactly. You can certainly say: Yes, I booked 100 meetings for a project or so. But then of course you also have to say: Okay, but that was a subscription model for 5 euros a month. Then it's really not hard to book 100 meetings a month, or something like that. So personally I have nothing against someone mentioning results in a job interview, but I wouldn't tell my application story through the results.

34:50Dominka: Okay. Those, I think, are then also more the qualities you want to hear: I'm very hard-working, I also make sure I don't mess anything up. But if I do mess something up, I get help, and things like that. That's of course what, I think, you not only want to hear but also feel from a candidate who's applying. And for me those are also good candidates, where you know: He's not going to be offended right away if you say: Hey, you really didn't do that well, you have to do it differently. There are people who are put off by that, but then you just have to watch out: Okay, then maybe it's not a job for you either.

35:22Martin: Exactly, you also have to be a bit self-critical.

35:27Dominka: Is there anything else you'd have liked to mention before we go completely crazy here?

35:36Martin: Nah, nah. I think we've already mentioned important points today. But I'd have one piece of advice, for example for applicants who might also want to get in touch with us: Give it a try. I think that goes for every job, including every BDR job ad: Give it a try. If you think, sales is something I'd like to try out, it's something that sounds interesting to me: Apply. Even if the criteria don't quite match your experience or your skills, in other words, your abilities: Give it a try. Because …

36:15Dominka: Yes, you're right about that. I think anyone who wants to do sales mustn't shy away from cold calling. They mustn't, because that's absolutely the thing where you say: Hey, now I've become a master at this, now I can do everything else in sales too. Because I think everything else is really easy to do by comparison: writing proposals, doing on-site meetings. I think that's more than half the battle if you master cold calling.

36:51Dominka: Martin, we've prepared something else. As you know, Kim is always very creative with her crazy questions for our guests. And that's why she's also prepared a game for you today, which I'm of course happy to present. It's called: Would you rather?

Martin: Okay.

37:19Dominka: It's closely tied to the topic we talked about today. We're actually almost at the end of this episode, but of course I won't keep the game from our audience. We'll definitely still do that. Game time. Would you rather … Questions for Martin. Would you rather onboard an inexperienced but highly motivated BDR, or someone with a lot of experience who isn't very adaptable, though?

38:03Martin: Always inexperienced and highly motivated.

38:06Dominka: Okay. Have you had bad experiences with experienced but unreliable …

38:13Martin: I have, and we have, yes. You do notice the person knows how the work should be done, but they're not willing to adapt to our processes or those of another company. And that's important.

38:28Dominka: That's bad, for a start. You should adapt first and act as if you like it, and then after a while, when you're really in, say: Hey, you know what, I don't think that's so good.

38:37Martin: Fake it till you make it.

38:38Dominka: Yes, or something like that. You can put it that way too. I like it. Good, then let's carry on. Would you rather have a perfect sales script that every BDR has to follow strictly, or give every BDR more freedom on their calls, even if the quality fluctuates somewhat?

38:58Martin: Can I say both?

Dominka: No, unfortunately not.

39:02Martin: Well, let's say the second. I'm a fan …

39:07Dominka: Wait, let me repeat it: You would rather give every BDR more freedom on their calls, even if the quality fluctuates, as Quality Assurance Manager?

39:17Martin: Definitely. If you give the person a bit of freedom, then of course they can also find their own style. And that can then work better than a perfect script that not everyone can bring to the phone well.

39:35Dominka: Okay. I'd also take the second, and then later I'd simply hand out criticism if it wasn't good.

Martin: Exactly.

39:44Dominka: And of course help, not just hand out criticism. Okay, I've got a few more. Would you rather hire a new BDR who's excellent with technology and tools but has hardly any cold calling experience, or someone who has already done a lot of cold calling but struggles with technology?

40:09Martin: The second, I'd say. We didn't have many cases, but a few cases where people didn't get used to the new tools so well. But after a while it worked out after all. Because in our job it ultimately also comes down to clicking on it, twice, four times, and after a week, two weeks, a month you already know everything.

40:33Dominka: I'd say so too. That was an easy question, I think. It was easy. Next: Would you rather take care only of the technical aspects of onboarding, or focus only on the BDRs' interpersonal skills? I know the answer.

40:50Martin: Well, the second.

40:52Dominka: Yes. That's a bad question, because both have to be part of it. But that's really an emotional question for you now, because you're more the one who wants everyone to feel comfortable, and that's obvious, of course. But I think you really also have to have the background to be able to follow it all technically. Because only later can you see from it: Hey, how did the whole thing go? How have they developed recently? And with whom can we maybe use that as a method again? The analytical part is important in developing employees.

41:36Dominka: Wait, I've got a few more. We don't have to send them all out. Would you rather have to work for a week without a phone, or have to get by for a week without emails? You're an email person.

41:50Martin: Yes, definitely.

41:52Dominka: Martin doesn't do cold calling, he just listens and sends emails afterwards. Okay, would you rather always work from home or always at the office?

42:01Martin: That's a really difficult question now, because I'd say again that I'd take both. I'd do it like this: one week at home, one week at the office. Because I really like my colleagues a lot, and that's why I'm also very happy to come into the office to work. But it's important to mention: You should also work at the office. And that's where my time working from home helps me, that I'm really within my own four walls and focus, that is, put the focus on things I have to get done now.

42:33Dominka: Okay. Yes, I'd say it's good …

Martin: … to have some variety, yes.

42:39Dominka: To wrap up this turbulent game, in which we've now learned a lot about hiring BDRs and about what's good and what isn't good, there's one more personal question for you. Would you rather live without the internet for a month, or without your favorite book or your favorite film for a month?

43:03Martin: Definitely without the favorite book, without the favorite film.

43:06Dominka: You can't do without the internet?

Martin: Nope.

43:08Dominka: Because you're very diligent and always have to check what's coming up for you at work.

Martin: Definitely, definitely.

43:14Dominka: Okay, that's what I thought. Martin, that's it for today. Thank you so much. If time allows and we carry on the way we started, and hopefully soon record the seventh episode too, then we'll surely get to more episodes. And I'd love to have you here as a guest again then. Maybe we can talk a bit more about it then and see what's happened in between. I hope that what you explained today will help the people out there a bit: what a BDR actually is, why one should be hired and how one should be hired. And if there are questions, people know where to find us. I think it's a topic that you can still talk about a lot.

Martin: Definitely.

44:00Dominka: Is there one more tip and a message for the world out there?

44:06Martin: Well, if you can't find employees, give us a call. BDRs specifically.

44:12Dominka: Okay, that's it. Thank you so much and until next time.

Martin: Thank you, and until next time.