From BD to AE: From Cold Call to Close

4:23Dominka: Kim was kind enough to put together a few questions for each area for us today. We start with business development. And straight away a question that's maybe quite classic, but that everyone would love to hear the answer to: How do you yourself prepare for a pitch? Are there rituals, or is there something you've been using for years that definitely works every time? Or nothing at all?

4:52Valentina: I wouldn't say nothing at all, but I'm also a fan of being a bit spontaneous. I do think a bit of preparation is important, especially if I've already had conversations with the contact before. But if it's completely cold, then I just look at the company, what they do, so that I can personalize it a bit. So that it also comes across as authentic, as if I'm really talking to the right contact and it's meant specifically for him. And then I just get going, and in the conversation you see which direction you want to go. The ritual itself, as I said, is just this upfront research: knowing what the company does and who the contact is. At least that's how it looks for me.

5:35Dominka: Has it ever happened to you that you yourself didn't know what to say and then just hung up right away?

Valentina: Yes.

Dominka: Yes? Okay. At the beginning, or does that still happen?

5:48Valentina: That was at the beginning, but I don't think it's that bad at all. I think you have to go through something like that, because you learn from those situations. Especially when, for example, you work here as a BDR and have a new project, you feel a bit unsure, and then comes the first, the second or maybe already the third call with a contact. At the beginning you just do feel a bit unsure. I find that it happens very often at the beginning. But now in our internal sales, I've been doing this for six, seven, eight months now, you don't do that anymore, because you already have in your head exactly what you want to say and what the pitch looks like. That comes automatically then.

6:33Dominka: Yes, maybe it's better to hang up than to trip over your words and mix up the names. Because we also use pseudonyms when we're on the phone. We don't call for a company under our own name. That's actually common practice in our industry too. And then it can happen: okay, which topic is it right now?

6:52Valentina: Yes, but as a woman you at least have this tactic where you can say: I recently got married and changed my name, that's why I slipped up a bit.

Dominka: Assuming you're the type to change your name straight away.

7:11Dominka: Okay, cool. Is there one thing where you'd say: that's a successful call, this is going to go further? Or how does a cold call, the first call, actually usually end for you?

7:24Valentina: I'd say when I was able to go a bit deeper into the topic with the contact and he actually showed interest. Even if at the beginning, with some, that comes with, I wouldn't say aversion, but a bit of doubt. Even then I find it better to talk to someone like that than to someone who just says something right away, and then you haven't really gone into the subject at all, you just stay on the surface. I find that much worse than a conversation where you went deeper into the topic. If I've asked a few questions and can actually have a conversation with someone, then I also feel that the conversation was successful and that I can get a meeting out of it, if not now, then maybe later.

Dominka: No matter what the outcome is.

Valentina: Exactly, exactly.

8:13Dominka: Yes, that's true. You can also very often draw a good conclusion from, in quotation marks, bad calls. Where you say: okay, he maybe asked me something I couldn't counter at all, but that's okay too. Then maybe we don't do that at all, and then it's not our target customer either.

8:32Valentina: I think that's also where you learn the most. When you hear a no and right away a reason why not. Because then I know: okay, this industry isn't a fit for us, or this customer targets these customers, that's not our thing at all. So you hear things you can do something with later, and that's also super exciting. Much better than just: "Yes, sure, meeting, bye." Once we're in the meeting, we don't get …

Dominka: … much out of that.

8:59Dominka: Yes. Let's maybe go one step back to the cold call, when you really didn't get through to the right person. That's actually most calls: the switchboard, a colleague who can't put you through, or someone who says straight away "Nah, not interested" and then hangs up right away. That happens a lot, those are actually most of the conversations you have in a day. When I think back to my time when I still did cold calls myself: I didn't have a huge problem with it. I just thought it was okay: I called, he brushed me off, fine, I'll try again next time. But I can easily imagine there are people who tell themselves: okay, I'm doing cold calling today, I'm completely determined to do it. Then that happens ten times in a row …

Valentina: Yes.

Dominka: … and then, I think, most people give up.

9:53Valentina: That's also the biggest mistake you can make, I think. You have to have done it for a certain amount of time to see these trends in your own processes, how things move. One day will be bad, the next a bit better, you'll talk to one contact. On the third day you'll probably have three on the phone, and on the fourth day it'll be bad again. But you have to be aware that you have to keep going to achieve something. If you've done it for ten calls and said: nah, it's not for me, then you haven't done much. Then you've really only scratched the surface and seen: nah, doesn't work. And that's it. But that's not the whole picture and not the whole story. You do have to do it a bit longer, give yourself time and also have enough quantity, so enough leads, enough contacts you're working with, so that it actually leads somewhere.

10:51Dominka: How would you judge: okay, she just brushed me off right at the switchboard, I won't continue there? Or would you say I'll take another look at the lead, maybe it was just a bad day? The question behind it is actually: how do you recognize whether you should continue with a contact, or rather with a lead, with a company, or not?

11:16Valentina: That depends, of course, on the steps I've already taken. If, for example, I've only spoken to the switchboard and they say: "No, we won't put you through," then I try to get around the switchboard some other way and reach the contact. But if I've gotten a no from the contact, okay, then maybe that should be the end. But in many companies, and that's the case for us, we can approach other contacts. It doesn't have to be just the Head of Sales, it can also be the Head of Marketing. Then I can take that other route. And when I've felt that I've contacted enough people in the company, that they really have no interest, and I've talked to the contacts who gave me real feedback, then I say: okay, that's enough now. I once had a project where I was contacting really large companies, and I had to talk to various contact persons there. I learned that you should stick with the contacts a bit longer there, to then actually be able to say: okay, I'm not getting any further here. I'm firmly convinced that you have to go down and exhaust all directions and all routes, to then be able to say: okay, that's enough here. But at some point it has to stop too. You don't want to end up pestering the ladies at the switchboard. You just have to somehow feel it: when is it done, and when can I not do anything more there?

12:42Dominka: I'm also such a huge fan of idioms. I think it's simply something that makes a language really likeable and rich, and you can also tell from it: okay, this person is completely at home in the language. That's also a separate topic for us that we'll talk about later. Our clients often say in the first meetings, and it's an idiom I really like because it comes up so often: "We don't want to leave scorched earth behind." What do we do about it? Or what does the client even mean by that?

13:19Valentina: What most of them are afraid of, what the problem could be, is that we call there and somehow leave a bad impression of them, of our clients. And that with all these contacts we've contacted, which they later want to approach themselves, they won't get anywhere anymore because of us. But I mean, if you've prepared well, if you know what you're talking about, and as a rule we know what we're talking about. When we work on our projects, we don't leave scorched earth behind; we've actually prepared the ground a bit for our clients.

Dominka: Ploughed the field in advance, exactly.

14:03Dominka: I think so too. And I think that's also one of those topics that, especially for us as an agency, because we do outsourcing in sales, is very often an obstacle for most people. Because they think that's maybe something you shouldn't outsource at all, but do in-house. What's your opinion on that? Are there situations where you should definitely not outsource it? Or situations where you could say: hey, now you can go right ahead and do it?

14:34Valentina: I think it always depends on the company. I can understand clients when I have them on the phone and they give me reasons why they want to do it in-house. I can follow that. But there are situations where it would be worth it for us to step in for them. Those are usually reasons like, for example, that they don't have time for it. Or that they simply don't want to do cold calling. Many simply don't want to pick up the phone and call contacts. But this way you can expand your own sales, generate new leads and have new companies as potential customers. And if a company's only reason is that it simply doesn't want to do it, then I think that's a pretty good reason for us why it should work with us. So as I said, it simply depends on the company and on what it gives as a reason.

15:28Dominka: Yes, that's maybe a topic of its own too. I think you could record a whole episode on that. We can write that down straight away as a new topic and then talk about it again really thoroughly.

15:41Dominka: But one question Kim has already prepared for us, and which I think fits quite well with this not-so-popular job as a BDR, because people are just very shy on the phone, where nobody sees them: What makes the job a bit exciting after all, so that you learn to love it too? What's the good thing about it?

16:05Valentina: What I like is that, when you work here internally, for example, you can learn new things. When you work on a project, you learn new tips and tricks, learn new things for your clients that you then pass on. You can expand your own knowledge with every conversation. And I find that super exciting and cool. Sure, it's a bit exhausting when you call the switchboard and they don't want to put you through. I mean, that happens to everyone and actually, as you already said, several times a day. But when you have someone on the phone who wants to talk to you, then I think those can turn into pretty good conversations that you can also get something out of. I find that part of the work as a BDR cool and exciting.

17:00Dominka: Okay. And the downsides?

Valentina: Oh, the switchboard.

Dominka: You've mentioned it a few times already. Could have guessed that, really.

17:08Valentina: Yes, either the switchboard or just these contacts. You've worked on this company for months to finally get past the switchboard. You get to the contact, he just says "No, thanks, no need" and hangs up again. And I'm like: oh come on, at least give me a reason I can enter here. Those are sometimes the two things I, at least, struggle with.

17:29Dominka: Okay. If you could now describe the process from BDR, or rather from business development, to Account Executive in a few bullet points, how would you describe it? What's the first point, what's the last, and what are the points in between that you definitely shouldn't skip?

17:48Valentina: The first thing, as I mentioned at the beginning, is simply a bit of quick research. Then you start calling, make that first call and of course try to reach the contact. Once you've reached them, you've set up a meeting, hopefully qualified enough, both for us in internal sales and for our clients we work with. Everything else then follows, I won't say by itself, but you already have the good preparation from the first calls, which you then take over as Account Executive. Once you're sitting in the meeting, you can refer to the first conversation with the BDR and say: okay, this and that was discussed. Then you have the first meeting, where you see whether it's a fit or not, whether we want to enter into a collaboration there. Everything else then follows from this presentation, this first online meeting, where you see whether it fits or not. Because it has to fit for both sides. That's super important for us too.

18:53Dominka: Okay, good. Let's say you've set up a meeting, the potential client is ready for an appointment. You're now preparing, the day has come, the meeting is today at 2 p.m., and hopefully the client shows up right on time. What do you do before the client appears in the meeting, right before or a few minutes before? How do you prepare for a meeting at all?

19:28Valentina: There are a few things I always do. The first is that I prepare the presentation. For us that's two small steps, but it's still important, because what we do should also come across as personalized. That's why in the presentation I always make a point of changing the logo. Before the meeting I always look at what the company does, what industry it's in. Then I think about which projects we've had that are similar, or where we, for example, went after a similar industry, what could be interesting for them. And of course I also look at what was discussed with the contact earlier. Maybe in the first call with the BDR he mentioned a few things that are important to him: that they've already had external partners but it didn't work out, or that they, I don't know, don't have a sales team right now and it's being built up from scratch. Those are always interesting things you can then bring up in the meeting. And then you hop into the meeting, and you're good to go.

20:29Dominka: So actually very relaxed. It's not some huge preparation where you have to prepare super thoroughly for days and try to, I don't know, research everything about the person's marital status, all their hobbies and everything they've posted on LinkedIn. It happens very often that people aren't active online at all and you can't find out much. So your focus is on the company itself and on how we can help their sales improve a bit, or rather get leads.

Valentina: Exactly.

21:07Dominka: Good. So maybe in general for the audience, there may be a few listeners who've never had a meeting, an online meeting or an in-person meeting: you prepare the way you just described, but what does it look like then in the meeting itself? What are things that really should be included from start to finish?

21:34Valentina: Always a short round of introductions.

Dominka: Okay.

21:38Valentina: So that they also know who they're talking to, who we are, what we do. Of course we know who our clients are, we've also looked on LinkedIn at what their position is. But simply so that they describe themselves what exactly their responsibilities in the company are. Maybe it's a Head of Sales, but maybe just a salesperson who'll bring their boss along to the next meeting. Maybe it's the managing director. Simply so that we know exactly who takes on which tasks. Of course we also really like doing a bit of chitchat. Then we also ask about things that are interesting to us personally, because we want to understand how the company works and how sales is set up. So that they mention themselves what they've done so far, what the plans are, where the whole thing is supposed to go. And then you start with the presentation. Clients are often also happy to ask questions during the presentation, some do it at the end of the presentation. But simply having an open ear, listening to people and then having answers ready, that's super important. And at the end you try to set up a follow-up meeting …

Dominka: Okay, very important.

Valentina: … in which, once you've put together a proposal, you should also discuss the proposal. Those are a few things that I think should be part of every meeting with us. And I think that's almost always how it goes, too.

23:07Dominka: What works better in the meeting? When you stick strictly to the structure that's already set by a presentation or by an agenda you sent beforehand? Or when you go along completely spontaneously with whatever the client may try to steer directly through questions? Is it good when the client steers?

23:28Valentina: Not steer directly, but I also don't find it problematic when the client has questions right during the presentation.

Dominka: That makes the whole thing more dynamic.

23:39Valentina: Exactly, exactly. I also find that much more exciting and cooler. It also gives me that adrenaline rush when you're not told exactly what to say now. Sure, it's much more relaxed for me if I just give my presentation, at the end come the questions, these are my answers, and that's it. Sure, that's relaxed, but I find it much more exciting when I get questions and then go to this slide and then to the next and then here and there. Those are things I actually enjoy a bit in a meeting.

24:10Dominka: Maybe a little side tip for people: how do you handle it when the client is in a really bad mood in the meeting and asks a question where you already know he actually wants to bury me right here and just fish out something negative?

24:26Valentina: I always try to be super positive in meetings, and I don't get into conflicts with clients either. I pass on the info: what we actually do, what our company does, what our services are. If that doesn't suit you, great. Here's the door, you can do what you want. But I'll never get unpleasant or try to, I don't know, make a scene. Instead I just pass on the info that's important for him, and he can do with it what he wants. He can be in as bad a mood as he likes, but I do my job, and the rest is then up to him or her.

25:08Dominka: It actually rarely happens, too. But now and then it's just a bad day, or a client has come in who maybe isn't all that interested and wants to wrap the whole thing up very quickly. Then you actually know yourself: okay, hey, let's rather end this than keep going here, right?

25:26Valentina: Yes, we had one like that, he was super unpleasant. I wouldn't put up with something like that either. If they're super unpleasant and communicate with you in a way that isn't respectful, then I have no problem ending the meeting. We did that this one time too.

Dominka: Can happen, yes.

Valentina: But if someone isn't in that bad a mood, then I think it's fine to carry on.

25:55Dominka: Okay. Maybe one more question that goes a bit more directly into the executive part. Your day, when you know: okay, I have several meetings today. What's the ideal number of meetings per day where you'd say, I'm still focused, it still works? Or where you'd say: hey, more than that shouldn't happen?

26:25Valentina: You always say two meetings.

Dominka: Yes, well, I'm lazy.

26:29Valentina: Nah, but I think that's fine too. So two meetings, and they usually last, well, half an hour, 45 minutes to an hour. I think you can afford that. And in between you can also have these short feedback calls that we sometimes have. That's why I'd say: two meetings that are actually meant as first meetings, I find that fine, with a few smaller ones. That's quite doable.

26:55Dominka: And for us, 99 percent of those are actually online meetings. Like everywhere in the world: very few people still do in-person meetings. Especially for the first calls, everyone prefers to join comfortably from the couch or from their armchair, simply get a feel for the client and see whether anything can come of it at all.

27:20Valentina: Yes, it's more relaxed that way too. Especially for our clients, because they all come from the DACH region. Them having to come to Croatia now, or us going to Germany, Austria or Switzerland ourselves, that wouldn't be worth it for everyone.

Dominka: We used to do that too.

Valentina: Yes, so I've heard.

27:36Dominka: That was all before Covid, people traveled more back then. I was never a fan of it, I always thought you can do it this way too. The world has now understood that as well, just like I already had ahead of time. And I think for most people it's also very pleasant. But since we're talking about the length of a meeting: you said half an hour. Half an hour is almost tight, very few last only half an hour. But I'd say around 45 minutes, until it does run later with the questions and so on. What was the longest meeting you had online?

28:12Valentina: Online? Over an hour. I think the last one. The one before last, yes.

Dominka: That was 63 minutes, I think.

28:24Valentina: That did take a while, but it's still doable. We had that one live, that was almost two hours, or an hour and a half.

28:33Dominka: Yes, could be. That's why you said "online" right away, because in-person meetings really always take longer. You spend the first 20 minutes just greeting each other.

28:43Valentina: Yes, true, true. You chat a bit, natter. But I think my first meeting that I did on my own was super quick.

Dominka: Oh right.

28:55Valentina: I got through it fast, and I told you too: oh God, that was so quick. But he said he really liked that I'd steamrolled through it like that. And in the end it actually turned into a project.

Dominka: Cool. You judged it well.

29:09Valentina: Yes, but actually only because I was too nervous. I didn't really know what I was doing, because that was my first meeting where I was on my own.

29:20Dominka: You're a bit nervous, of course, but it's good that it went so well. The first time, you know. You're a bit faster then than later. Always the way.

29:30Dominka: Okay. Every meeting actually always has a presentation, or a slide deck, as people say now, or a deck. Especially with us, right from the start. Do you think that's necessary? Or is it just there because you want to show your colors?

29:52Valentina: Ah, I don't know. Sometimes I really wonder … But I do think so, because then you don't just see our colors, but also a little bit of text. We do have a bit of text in there, but we tell most of it. But with some I really do wonder, because they then come to the feedback call and ask things that were already in the presentation we went through with them. Then I think to myself: were you listening? I don't get it. What happened? Why do we have this presentation?

30:21Dominka: But most of them get it from us too. I think it's simply the habit people carry around with them: that they don't hear everything that reaches their ears. And then maybe a few questions from the boss came up in the wider group that he couldn't answer straight away. So he just comes again to make sure. Or maybe to test us again, whether we even know what we're talking about and whether it's the same as last time. Okay, you mentioned the colors, and I mentioned them earlier too. I mean, colors or a logo are something that somehow sticks in your memory. If we're now talking specifically about the presentation: do you think it should be dynamic, or should it rather stay very professional, without much back and forth?

31:22Valentina: I think we have the perfect combo there. We have a dynamic presentation with a few cool features I like, but it still always comes across as professional. I have the feeling it's a good mix of both. And I think it's also super important that it comes across as professional in particular. Sure, you can also turn up with a plain white deck and say: hey, these are our services. That's accepted too and also comes across as professional. But of course it's much nicer when you appear in your own colors. That's why for me it's like this: you can do it without a presentation, but I find it much nicer with a presentation that's nicely designed too. And I think that sticks in the client's head: that's OB2B, those are the colors. Then the proposal comes too, in the same colors, and everything is somehow one whole.

32:17Dominka: Do you think there are sales colors where you'd say they fit perfectly into sales, and ones where you'd say: hey, no, please don't?

32:25Valentina: Sales colors that fit in? Well, I do think blue and black fit sales pretty well.

Dominka: Okay, especially a dark blue, right?

32:34Valentina: Yes, exactly. I wouldn't necessarily pick pink or yellow or, I don't know, red as sales colors.

Dominka: Orange would be really bad for you too, right?

32:44Valentina: Nah, I don't wear anything orange. I'd never wear our merch if it were orange. But I think we've hit on the right colors there.

32:57Dominka: Since we're on colors: Kim didn't prepare this question, but I find it really interesting, especially for the two of us. We do like to dress nicely, right, and have colors that suit us or don't. Orange doesn't suit you below the head, you think, but on your head it suits you quite well. I always find it interesting to hear from the people who have meetings with you where they're actually looking. But first: is it important for you to always look good in a meeting? Or do you sometimes show up in your pajamas with a bun on your head?

33:41Valentina: I don't look the way I do in the office, for example, in every meeting. Sometimes I also work from home, and then I'm in my pajamas, and that's fine, but not for the meeting. Then I do wear a T-shirt or something, so it looks halfway decent. Sometimes my hair is washed, sometimes not. That's just how life is at the moment. But when I'm in the office, I do dress nicely and make an effort. At home it's a bit more comfortable, just however you feel good.

34:16Dominka: Okay, so you'd say it's not necessary. As long as what you're saying is right and the client is in a good mood, it almost doesn't matter whether you're super well dressed and, for us women, wearing makeup. Although men wear makeup too. So you'd say: doesn't have to be.

34:40Valentina: I don't think it has to be. Of course it's always nice when you make yourself look nice.

Dominka: For yourself, yes.

34:48Valentina: Yes. But I don't think you should throw on super fancy clothes for other people; it should be something you feel comfortable in. And most of the clients we talk to look super normal too. They're normal people who sit in their home office just like us and wear a hoodie too. And it's much better if you have a hoodie with OB2B on it.

35:08Dominka: Yes, okay, there's something to that. But another thing where I now know we have the same problem …

Valentina: Oh no.

35:18Dominka: … is that when we have a meeting with our clients, together or separately, we very often actually look at ourselves and not directly at the client.

35:30Valentina: I always make an effort to look at the client, because I also want to know who that is, you do too. But sometimes it happens that your own image …

Dominka: … just totally overwhelms you.

35:44Valentina: Totally, that's exactly the reason. Nah, so when the client is talking, I look at him, and when I'm talking, I look at myself. Which maybe isn't great, but that's how we are.

35:55Dominka: Yes, but I think it's really because you also want to check yourself: okay, am I showing my best side here, or is something off right now? I don't think it's because we're somehow in love with ourselves.

Valentina: No.

Dominka: But rather that we really want to show ourselves at our best. And that the client, when he looks at us and not at himself, also knows later: ah, those were the nice girls, they presented themselves really well. I think that's something that's somehow anchored in the back of our minds.

Valentina: I think so too.

36:36Dominka: Okay, hopefully it's not a disorder that we're so narcissistic. I'd be really interested to know whether most people do it too, or whether we're really totally disturbed.

36:48Valentina: I don't want to ask the question, because I'm genuinely afraid of what I'll hear from the others.

Dominka: Yes, but then maybe that's also something that connects us, and that's why we're such a good team. We'll have to ask Petra.

Valentina: Yes.

37:05Dominka: How often does it happen that a client doesn't show up to the meeting? What do you do then? Do you give up, call again, pester him, go to his house and knock on the door?

37:19Valentina: Nah, I don't do that. If he were in Croatia, maybe. Nah, I mean, it happens now and then that the client doesn't show up. If there's a reason, for example "I'm sick this week," okay, cool, happens to everyone. But if, for example, you've set up a meeting without having gone deeper into conversation with the client beforehand, then it can very well happen that the client doesn't show up. Because he never showed real interest anyway, just: yes, okay, we can set up a meeting, and I'll take a look at what it is. Without really having a need and without real interest. I can understand that too, but then that's our fault. And if they just don't come because they can't be bothered or have somehow messed up their schedule, I do find that a bit rude. We always wait 15 minutes in case the client is running late. We don't leave the meeting straight away. But if he hasn't shown up after 15 minutes …

Dominka: … and doesn't get in touch. You call too, after all.

38:20Valentina: Exactly, well, I always send an email.

Dominka: You send out an email?

Valentina: Yes, while we're still in the meeting, I send an email. And once we're out of the meeting, I try to reach him the next day or maybe the next week, to see what the reason was and set up a new meeting again.

38:34Dominka: But it actually happens relatively rarely. And very often it's really just that they're running late and we've already reacted beforehand: "Hey, where are you? We've been waiting in the meeting for two minutes already."

38:45Valentina: And often they then apologize in the second meeting, and then the mood is fine again. So I mean, it happens now and then, but you can get past it. It's not a big problem.

39:02Dominka: Okay. Maybe we can wrap up the little Account Executive part with this: what's one thing where you say, I really love doing that, and one I don't like doing at all? I know what I hate.

Valentina: I know: the proposals, probably.

Dominka: Yes.

Valentina: I love proposals. I love it.

Dominka: I hate proposals.

39:30Valentina: I picked that up from you and from Anči. Both of you told me: you'll see, writing proposals is so boring, but you'll be done in ten minutes. I had trouble with the first proposal. I think I worked on one proposal for three hours, it took super long. But now I'm really done with a proposal in ten minutes, and I find it really relaxing to do. You have a clear structure, you know what you're doing. If you have all the data, it's super easy. Maybe now and then you have to look up things like the VAT number. But I think proposals are pretty cool, I don't have a problem with them.

40:08Dominka: The good thing with us is that we actually have a very detailed proposal that we adapt to the client, but it's easy to work with. That wasn't always the case. You have to give us credit for that: before your time it was still a bit more complicated to put together a proposal. But I still hate it today, even though it takes much less time, because I've seen the document so many times that I just don't feel like it anymore. And I've already changed it so many times. But that's also why today it only takes ten to 20 minutes to put together a really good proposal that the client then also appreciates and where he says: hey, all the points are in here. So what I hate, you love most, I think that's really cool. Then you get to do the proposals all the time, you do it fantastically too. Even after eight years I still keep making mistakes with the proposals, so I'm handing the task over to you wholeheartedly. Exactly, the proposal. What the meeting and the meeting preparation are in business development, for the Account Executive it's then the, let's say, second-to-last step before a feedback call, so before a call with the client where you look again: hey, do we want to or don't we?

41:45Dominka: What does a proposal need to have in it to be a great proposal?

41:52Valentina: Actually everything that was discussed in the meeting regarding the numbers: so that the client knows exactly what he can expect from us and what our guarantee is. And those are the calls we'll make and the hours we'll work.

Dominka: Exactly, for someone else it's a quantity of screws, I don't know.

42:10Valentina: Exactly, exactly. And that you also know exactly which client it's for. That means it has to be personalized and adapted to the specific client. And then all these little details: over the years we've probably learned what's important and which things we need to put in writing, so that no client can later claim something different and we don't promise something we can't deliver. I think we have a proposal that goes down well with clients. So far, I think, we've had few cases where there were points where they said: nah, we want to change that. Instead, these are just the things we require from our clients and the things we can deliver.

42:52Dominka: I think what you're saying applies universally too. But if we're talking about the format: do you think it makes more sense for the proposal to be long, especially when it's about a service? Or rather a one-pager?

43:08Valentina: There you do need a longer proposal, because you have to cover everything that matters legally, and also everything you discussed in the presentation. You don't want to have said something that then isn't in the proposal, and later the client thinks: hey, but we discussed that. And then we don't deliver it. It's really important that the client knows what he can expect from us, and that we know what's important for our collaboration with the client. So I think the longer … not the longer, it shouldn't be 100 pages either. But our 20 pages are, I think, enough for a good start.

43:47Dominka: Okay. I'd say it's also always really important to personalize the proposal. First, in the company's colors. Then you also include the client's logo and mention the client's name more often, so that they also know: okay, this is really meant for us. And of course what also mustn't be missing is the pricing.

Valentina: True.

Dominka: Definitely. Super important, so they know: okay, these are the terms. But also a few reference customers. Especially maybe the ones that aren't public, so not visible anywhere on the website. That really counts for something.

44:28Valentina: We also have a pretty long list of reference customers that then goes into the proposal. For many that's a big plus too, because in our presentation we of course show a few on the slide, but in the proposal there are many more. Then the client can take a bit of time to read through the whole thing. The testimonials are in there too, and it's always nice to see in writing, officially from a client, that we had a good collaboration.

44:56Dominka: Good, so we've put the proposal together and it goes out, usually the same day or the next morning. How long do we wait, or rather how long does it make sense to wait until the next call, the follow-up? When should you schedule it? You do that in the meeting, but it maybe shouldn't be more than three years away.

45:23Valentina: Would be nice, yes. Normally we try to set up a follow-up, so a feedback call, in the first meeting for, I don't know, the next week or the week after. Depending on whether there are vacations or the client doesn't have time, it can also be two or three weeks. But we do like it to be as soon as possible, because you also want to get the collaboration started. With some, the process runs a bit longer, and that's completely fine if it drags on a bit. With one client we've now been in talks for, I think, two or three months, because he needs a bit of time because of the vacations.

Dominka: And because it's a bigger client, maybe.

46:02Valentina: Exactly, exactly. That you just take a bit of time there to build the whole thing up so that it gets somewhere a collaboration could start. That's why: feedback calls in three months, okay, can be done. But as a rule we try to schedule the feedback call for the next week. And I think that's enough time for most clients to look at the proposal, whether they agree or not and what should still be changed.

46:31Dominka: For us it's relatively clear how long the sales process takes, roughly under a month. And it's more the exception when it takes several months. I won a client I started negotiating with in 2019, and then he only got back in touch in 2023.

Valentina: Yeah, okay.

46:56Dominka: That really is an exception, but it does happen. With our partners it varies: some have sales processes that are similarly short to ours, about a month. And then there are some where it takes over a year. You have to take that into account too. It depends on how big the client is and where the decision-makers actually sit, whether in the country or somewhere abroad. Those are things you should consider as well. And don't be impatient, bring a bit of patience and then keep calling to follow up.

47:34Valentina: Yes, don't lose sight of them, stay on it. But also don't become a nuisance on the phone, calling every month, but rather: okay, we'll talk at the end of the summer, and then I get in touch at the end of the summer.

47:45Dominka: Yes, and they always react quite well to that, I'd say. It's happened to me too that I made these follow-up calls after a few months: "Hey, do you still remember me?" "Absolutely." And they found it really likeable that I actually got back in touch at that time. Sometimes something came of it, sometimes not. But staying in people's good memory is an important part of our work, right?

Valentina: Yes.

48:11Dominka: Okay, good. When a client says: "I really liked what you showed us, we'd love to get started," how quickly does that work? How quickly do things usually get going with us?

48:28Valentina: As a rule, that depends on when we had our first meeting and the feedback call, and how quickly the client wants to start. We've had clients who said: next week would be cool, if we could start. If we have resources, sure, okay. It may be a bit more work and effort for us to prepare everything so that everyone takes it over correctly and well and everyone has the info. But actually it's doable. With most, though, you have a bit of lead time to tell the project managers: hey, here comes a new project, so they also have time to schedule the people. And once it's time, usually after two or three weeks, you start with the preparation, and then everyone gets to know each other too. That's always super exciting to follow, especially from our point of view. Because then we see how they come together, how they communicate and what our people think of the new clients we've been in contact with. Whether they find them cool, the way we found them cool. Those are exciting moments.

49:34Dominka: It's always better when there's a bit of a time buffer, not when it happens overnight.

Valentina: That's true.

49:42Dominka: Good. Okay, Valentina, this is your first podcast, and I'd say you're already totally relaxed. I think I'm also a bit more relaxed by now than the first few times. I also feel quite comfortable as host.

Valentina: You did well.

49:58Dominka: And I'm doing quite well too, I'd say, without being modest in any way, which I rarely am anyway. I have a game here that Kim prepared for us. There are a few things in it that I'll quiz you on right now. You have to answer really quickly what you'd say about it. Would you rather be a BDR or an Account Executive?

50:30Valentina: Account Executive. It's easier, sorry.

50:32Dominka: Yes, okay. I agree with you. Then one more side question on that: can you even be a good Account Executive without having been a BDR?

50:41Valentina: No, you have to know the whole process and have made these calls yourself, so you know what to expect from the meetings and how to prepare for them, because you have that experience as a BDR. So I think they belong together. And it makes sense to have done the one in order to do the other later.

51:02Dominka: Yes. I also think you can't just hire anybody: hey, you're Account Executive here now, and they've never made a phone call in their life and tried to land a client themselves. Okay, good. Home office or office?

51:15Valentina: Can I say: both? We can do both, after all.

Dominka: Yes, that's an advantage too. But that's also something Covid brought with it, it wasn't always like that. Okay: rather five short meetings or one super long one?

51:33Valentina: I feel like I've done more when it's a longer one. But that doesn't always have to be the case, sometimes you have long meetings that lead nowhere. But I'd find five shorter ones exhausting. So I think a longer one.

51:48Dominka: Okay. Are you more of a fan of generating lots of leads every day and focusing on that, or would you rather focus on client relationships you can nurture?

52:01Valentina: Also depends on the day. Sometimes I'm not in the mood for new pitches, then I just call follow-ups. And on another day, when I'm a bit more in the mood for new contacts, then I carry on with my fresh contacts. It's a matter of how you feel.

52:16Dominka: Okay, okay. These are pretty long questions here, Kim. Would you rather work with a client who demands a lot of feedback and changes, or with a client who hardly communicates?

52:29Valentina: No communication is bad, a disaster. But a client who's not happy with anything would also be problematic. So a healthy mix: someone who knows the limits within which he should move as a client, who can ask for things, but also knows what he can ask of us. But also someone who communicates and wants to communicate with us, so that we feel like we're part of the team and like this is going somewhere.

53:02Dominka: Those are just two extremes being compared here. But no communication is, I think, the worst thing you can have. No matter whether the project runs for years and you think: yeah okay, he doesn't communicate with us at all, let's just carry on like this. That's so exhausting. Much more exhausting than having a client who really gets on your nerves because he constantly wants to do something different. There at least you know: okay, let's not get carried away now, now we do it this way or not at all. And then a question I really love here: do you prefer meetings early in the morning or late in the evening?

53:44Valentina: I know what your answer is, but mine is the opposite. I'm more the kind of person who gets much more done in the morning than in the afternoon.

53:59Dominka: I hate the saying "Morgenstund hat Gold im Mund" (German saying: the early bird catches the worm). That's such nonsense, the dumbest saying there is. It's not true at all, you're just tired.

54:09Valentina: Not me. I'm already up at 6.

Dominka: I don't believe you at all.

Valentina: Yes, I find I'm much more active in the morning.

Dominka: Okay, so morning. I could have done the interview myself and answered everything.

54:27Dominka: And we have one more topic to close, which I think should always be included: a bit of small talk. With us it's always the case that we can talk a bit about cultural differences. Although the cultural difference for people like us, who are connected to the DACH region and have lived there for a long time, or because many of us learned German as children … We're based in Croatia, for those who maybe don't know. That often prompts a question like: how come you speak German like that? Why do you even do this? Does everyone speak German well? That's then a kind of closing question. When the clients have relaxed a bit in the meeting, that question always comes at the end. But at the start we do a bit of small talk ourselves, depending on what the topic was. We don't really like talking about the weather, but the client now and then comes with: well, so how's the weather in Croatia?

55:39Valentina: Yes, true. But you always try to find a topic where you feel a bit closer to the client, not friends, but a bit closer, so that you feel a bit more relaxed in the conversation, in the meeting. Exchanging a few sentences very briefly is completely fine, I think, and it goes down well too. Most of them also like sharing something personal themselves. That's why I think it's totally fine.

56:05Dominka: Although I have to say: in online meetings, especially at the beginning, I keep it really limited. We tend to ask sales questions instead, how sales is set up. So not salesy questions, but more like: hey, what's going wrong for you, or is everything running smoothly? But since we're talking about the weather: that's actually something where you'd say, oh, this is going totally wrong now if someone brings up the weather right away. But for us it's a different thing, because they ask straight away: so how's the weather in Croatia? They really want to know what we're up to here and why we even do this in German and on the DACH market. That's just something that's not conventional. And that's another way we stand out from the others.

56:49Valentina: True, true. And I find they're always so surprised when we say we're from Croatia. Then it's somehow something completely different.

Dominka: They always ask us too: "No, you're kidding. Where are you sitting right now?"

57:01Valentina: And when they say, for example: "Oh, we're going on vacation now," I always ask: "Are you coming to Croatia?" Because I always think: well, of course the Germans come to our coast when they go on vacation. You try, I don't know, to build the relationships you have through that too, and to present Croatia in a nicer light.

57:26Dominka: It's true, though. We're proud of the beautiful country we live in. It does have a lot to offer.

Valentina: I think so.

57:34Dominka: And that's exactly something that's very often been an internet debate. I've seen a few times on LinkedIn that people said in posts that they find it totally outrageous or racist when someone asks them where they're actually from. I think it's really lovely. I really like it when someone asks me that. And I'm totally curious too, I find it interesting to find that out about people.

58:01Valentina: Yes, from my point of view that's not a problem. Because I think from their point of view it comes across as if they're talking to Germans, with the two of us. And when they ask: "So, where are you from?", and we then say Zagreb, I think it's fine that they find out we're from Zagreb in Croatia. Because it's not meant as anything insulting or bad on their part, they just want to know where we're from. I also find it interesting to find out from others where they come from, but also that they know we're from Croatia.

58:36Dominka: Yes, I think that's really good too and I really like talking about it. When people ask me where I'm from, I always mention three countries. I'm never just straight Croatia or Germany or Bosnia, it's a bit mixed for me. And I find it really nice that someone asks me, and I'm really happy to answer. I think things like that are also part of how we can open up to the client a bit more and show: hey, a bit of small talk is allowed. It can maybe also be a more personal question or something that simply shows we're human.

59:11Valentina: You also have a dog. I find it cute too when you do something with Dita there and the clients … Nobody's going to react badly because you have a little baby dog.

Dominka: Who isn't that small.

59:23Valentina: Okay. But just these little things that, as you said, make you human and make you come across as human. I think that's fine.

59:32Dominka: That's why I think it's really important not just to run through your pitch, but to really get to know people. We're actually selling ourselves. In our meetings we're not selling software or anything like that. But even if you're selling SaaS software, you can still be a bit personal, even if later you simply hand the client something they operate themselves. Okay. That's it for today's episode, I think.

Valentina: Okay, cool.

1:00:08Dominka: We've been talking for almost an hour now, I think, haven't we? That went fast. Kim can cut it down a bit if needed. Otherwise we'll just end up with loads of reels and no episode at all. That's it. That was our fourth episode, our guest was Valentina, who does Inside Sales together with me and also a few other things in the company that come up. Ordering food, for example, she likes doing that too. Thank you so much.

Valentina: Thank you.

Dominka: Until next time. Maybe we'll invite you again.

Valentina: Yes, I'd love to.

Dominka: Goodbye.