The Perfect Project Setup in B2B Outbound

2:23Dominka: Yes, we're totally dependent. That's not good. Ivan, you're known here as an adrenaline junkie.

2:31Ivan: Yeah, a bit, I guess. I like to live dangerously. Bungee jumping is my favorite activity. I have to jump at least once a year, because without it things just aren't right. I haven't gone yet this year. I still have to wait three weeks until vacation, and then it's jumping time.

2:52Dominka: I think that's absolutely crazy. I would never do it. For me it's the worst thing you could possibly do, but I admire you all the more for doing it. Last time Valentina was our guest, and we also introduced her a bit through the personal side. Since you're an adrenaline junkie, I wanted to ask you: is there a comparison to what you do at OB2B? Is it somehow reflected in the projects you get?

3:19Ivan: Actually, yes. You can also look at it as if it were something a bit dangerous. And you have to prepare well to get into the right mindset, because if you're not prepared, everything can go wrong. But the main thing is that the rope doesn't break.

3:38Dominka: Oh, very good comparison. But you're actually someone who then really trusts the rope completely, or rather what the people in Inside Sales hand over to you as projects. That's Valentina, me, and now Petra too. Projects that you then get to kick off with us.

3:58Ivan: Right. It's always good to get feedback from you beforehand on how it went. That way I can already form a picture of the client in advance. Well, not exactly a picture, but I can prepare better, see how the client breathes and how I should prepare. Not just me, but in the end the whole team that would take part in the project setup and in the project.

4:20Dominka: I think it's really important that you, as the project lead who has to take over whatever comes in through sales, also have the trust that people won't palm a project off on you where you think: Hey, this is pure hell, the client doesn't fit us at all. That's a prerequisite that has to be there. So the clients who become our partners, as we call them, should also fit us quite well.

4:47Ivan: Exactly, right. Because if it didn't fit, you two, you and Valentina, would already notice in the first steps whether we'd come together or not. And of course I have complete trust in you there. You simply have to see whether you can imagine working together. And in the end it has to work for both sides.

5:11Dominka: But admittedly, it's surely happened before that you had a client, a partner, who maybe wasn't your favorite person, right?

5:20Ivan: Of course, that can happen sometimes. But then I have to do my best not to show it.

5:26Dominka: Okay. And did you always manage to keep the whole thing neutral somehow?

5:31Ivan: Yeah. You have to keep it professional.

5:34Dominka: You have to be able to take quite a lot when a client, or rather a partner, isn't necessarily someone you'd go for a coffee with. Then you just try: we keep it professional, we go step by step. You listen to their opinion, but you don't have to share it.

Ivan: Exactly.

5:56Dominka: That's, I think, a very, very important step in project preparation, or rather in project management itself. You're a project lead here, and so it's really important that you don't go into the whole thing with your feelings, but with a cool head.

6:10Ivan: Exactly. A cool head, and definitely getting familiar with the subject beforehand. With what I hear from you, for example: briefing the team before the project starts, or rather before the project setup phase, so that we're all on the same level and go into the conversation without prejudice. Because first we have to get familiar with the subject and with the client. And if you formed a picture beforehand, it would usually be the wrong picture. Then you'd have to do the whole preparation over again from the beginning.

6:47Dominka: All right. So, very briefly back to the introduction, to what we've done so far in our podcast. This is our fifth episode. I'm already very proud that we've made it to the fifth. In the last episode we talked with Valentina about business development and account executives. Before that we talked a bit about automation in sales and about sales, or rather cold calling, in general. Cold calling is our bread and butter. It's what we do. These are the projects that you then lead here at our company. And what's very important for us with this podcast is not to let the popularity and appeal of cold calling go under. There are lots of comments online, or from people we contact by phone, saying that it's simply not for them, that it's dead. We're of the opinion that cold calling is actually the supreme discipline of sales. We stick to that, and that's how we cultivate it too. And I think it's very important, especially when you're starting out, that you start well. Recently on LinkedIn we saw a post, or rather comments, where people of course had a lot to say about cold and warm leads, phone prospecting, inbound and lead qualification, and there's a little war going on there. The other day I read a comment saying that you shouldn't outsource cold calling because it should stay in-house. I talked about that with Valentina last time as well. One argument I saw was a lack of passion among outsourced employees. What do you say to that as a project lead?

8:48Ivan: Completely wrong.

8:49Dominka: Okay. We'll refute it today, precisely because we're going to talk about the project setup, where we especially emphasize that enthusiasm and passion have to be part of it. That the client, our partner, should convey the whole thing to us as if …

9:06Ivan: Exactly, we always say that too. He should explain the whole subject to us as if he were selling it to a customer. So that we hear it in his words, so we hear the wording, how he gets the whole thing across, and can do it the same way or even better.

9:25Dominka: I think that's exactly the part that's very important, where we, quote-unquote, introduce ourselves as new employees at the companies we'll later be doing this for. And passion and enthusiasm, I think, have really almost never been missing. Maybe there was a project once where it was missing, but then we took action.

9:48Ivan: Exactly. But passion, I'd say, is actually never missing, because it's very dynamic work: always something new, new technologies, new products. Me, for example, I'm a bit of a tech geek. And since most of our clients actually come from the IT industry, I find it very, very interesting to always hear our clients' success stories: what products they've developed, how they brought them to market. Because with technologies, most of the time you have no idea what's all out there on the market. It's always interesting to learn about what's new, and it's even more interesting to make calls for it. And that's my personal opinion: it always stays dynamic and never gets boring.

10:37Dominka: Okay, good. Ivan, if you'll allow me, I'd like to bring a bit of structure into the whole thing and lay out a little agenda for today for our listeners. First we'll talk very generally about the setup, what it even is. Then we'll talk about what it takes to understand the client, or rather the partner, well. Very important in the whole thing is learning quite a lot about the product or the service. We'll cover that topic too. Then setting up the project and the project infrastructure itself, what that looks like from our side, how you adapt and personalize the whole thing, what training means here, and definitely team readiness and team spirit. And maybe even the most important thing of all: the challenges that come our way, what our solutions are and whether there even is a universal solution. If not, then of course there's always good collaboration and lots of feedback. And then at least you can see: if it wasn't for you, then we'll just look at what else we can do so that you still remember it fondly. Then we'll play a game, we did that last time too, to relax a bit. And that's where we'll stop, draw a conclusion, and say goodbye to our dear listeners. Sound good?

12:14Ivan: Great.

12:15Dominka: Last time Valentina was very disappointed because there was nothing to help us relax except a game. That's why today we've provided a glass of wine. Cheers, to your health! Take a sip, then maybe it'll get a bit more relaxed.

12:31Ivan: Yes. Now we're ready.

12:38Dominka: So, now we can get started. Kim was so diligent again and prepared a few questions for us that we can use.

12:49Dominka: But I have a basic question. I asked our Valentina a similar question last time, this time I'm asking you. Is it even possible to be a good project lead without having done phone prospecting, cold calling, yourself?

13:07Ivan: Good question. I'd say no. Because you have to put yourself in the shoes of the BDR who's making the calls on the project. As the project manager behind the project, here at our company specifically: if you don't know what it looks like and what problems the BDR can have, then you can't respond accordingly either. You have your procedures for how to solve a problem. That can be kept very objective. But without having spent at least some time on the phone, you can't take over project management here, because you won't find your way in various situations.

13:53Dominka: Okay, okay, good. I also think you can only help people set something up well once you've done it yourself, at least for a while, not just tried it out. There are people who can't swim but once sat in a paddling pool and now want to become swimming instructors. You can't do that either, right?

14:16Ivan: Spot on.

14:17Dominka: Okay, great. Then straight away a first question to get us started: what is a setup here? What does it mean?

14:24Ivan: It's a preparation period in which we get familiar with our partners and with their product or service. For us it usually takes around two weeks. Of course we've had cases where it was kept a bit shorter, but two weeks is the standard, where you can prepare everything without stress and on time, so you can then start prospecting. This phase is very important, because without getting familiar with the client's product or service, you can't do the prospecting in a concrete way either. Actually, you can, but not really well.

15:05Dominka: But totally blind. I always found it pretty funny, too: a few years ago it was much more often the case that, when we mentioned our project preparation in our pitches, in our meetings, people were like: "Mhm, oh, okay. With the last provider, they just wrote the script straight away, we never saw it, and they started calling straight away." They found it really strange that we do a setup. And I thought to myself: Hey, how different is that, right?

15:39Ivan: Exactly. I can't imagine just starting to call like that.

15:45Dominka: Yes, that actually happened. At least at one meeting it was like: "Nah, we don't want that at all." And I was like: "Yes, okay, then we don't want to work together either." That's nonsense. It's actually meant for us too, so we get the right mindset and can then really come across like employees.

16:06Ivan: Of course, we have to get the most out of it. You can't do that without preparation. Sure, we could keep it completely generic, but we make it personal, personalized, prepared for the project, specifically for our partner. So it doesn't work without this phase.

16:23Dominka: Yes, that's absolutely correct, and I think that's the case with almost everything. When you buy chocolate in the supermarket, there's always a nice lady who gives you a sample of the chocolate you then buy later. Or of the coffee. You see that a lot in the supermarket. That's, I think, another example from real life, from everyday life. Okay, good. That also answered one of the questions I wanted to ask you: why it's even crucial to have a setup.

16:59Ivan: To make it more personal.

17:01Dominka: Exactly. And also to understand.

17:05Ivan: The client's point of view, actually. We also have to find out what our client actually wants to get out of the whole project. What's the end goal? Of course, to book the meetings. But his end goal is of course also to sell something. And if we don't personalize it, we can't get into the pain points and uncover them, so that he can close the sale in the end.

17:30Dominka: Okay. When we talk about understanding the client, that's, I think, one of the topics that are very important for our setup: what are the first steps you take with the client as project lead?

17:46Ivan: The first steps are of course to introduce myself and the whole team. So the client knows exactly who on our side would be working on the project as a person, with first and last name. That it's not someone we just took on for the project, but someone who's been with us for a while, has completed our internal training and already has a few projects under their belt. And this is actually where the first steps are defined. For example, when we'll meet for the first setup meeting and get to know each other, where we also expect our partners to introduce themselves. And in this first phase, in the first meeting, we actually define the first steps: what we'll be calling for. We get familiar with it and also go through the checklist of everything we need to get done during the project preparation period. That's actually very important, because if not all points are done, there can be small delays, which of course we want to avoid. The most important thing is to start on time and ready.

18:59Dominka: Yes, because it's also important to say: we're not a software company that provides software and says: "Hey, here, now we'll implement this." With software, the implementation would be our setup, but then the software does almost everything by itself.

Ivan: Exactly.

19:14Dominka: With us it's like this: we usually do a two-week setup, and then it's actually not finished yet. We understand the client in the setup and so on, but actually we also have to prove ourselves, because we're people doing this. There's no artificial intelligence behind us doing it for us, and no software that does it directly. That's why, above all, understanding each other well on a human level is, I think, really the cornerstone of working together with the client.

19:43Ivan: Right. The trust has to be there.

19:47Dominka: So what's the most important information you as project lead have to get from the client in order to prepare the project and then be able to tell the BDRs: "Hey, did you hear that? Does that work? Can you work with that?" What do you need?

20:07Ivan: For me it's very important to hear directly from the client in the first meeting how he presents his product. First, to understand it. Second, we always have questions that we prepare in advance and that we all talk about together. From my side, it's important to find out whether they've already had similar campaigns, for example. To ask whether they had any problems there, and which ones. To ask about the competition: whether the client has competitors, who they are, what the difference is, or rather why our client's product or service is better than the competition's.

20:53Dominka: I think reference customers are also really important, but not just to list them, rather with the story behind them, right?

21:00Ivan: Exactly, the use cases they had. Because through these stories we can actually also … the capabilities …

21:10Dominka: … the possibilities you have …

21:12Ivan: Exactly, highlight the possibilities of our clients, everything they can do. Not just in theory, but real use cases: where it was implemented, how it was implemented. So that the other side, the people we'll be talking to, can also picture it: Okay, they can do that for me too.

21:28Dominka: Yes, that's, I think, totally the pitch you build on that, that you really bring experience with you. Also as someone who makes the first calls. Because we never became experts in the fields we did the phone prospecting for. But precisely because someone told us something, you can come in with a story like that: "Hey, yes, I'm familiar with that, we did something similar along those lines. Let's take a look at whether that might also apply to you. I'd say yes, because you're in a similar industry, tick in a similar way, and I think I've understood your problem." It's very much about also understanding the problem of the person you're talking to.

22:12Ivan: Right. You also have to ask good questions to get to the problem and to be able to see what the problem actually is. That's where we're the experts, of course, at being able to ask these questions. But our client is the expert in his subject. That's why we need his input directly.

22:28Dominka: Exactly. I think if you don't have a story you can tell, you can't really listen either. And listening is one of the most important traits in a call anyway: that you even understand, okay, he just said something I can pick up on. If you don't hear that and just run through your pitch, your chances are probably very slim. And that's why, I think, the setup above all is what keeps you from going into a call nervous and just firing off a pitch that somebody put in front of you on a sheet of paper or digitally: "Here, go ahead, it's fine like this."

23:06Ivan: Exactly. You can do that, but that's not the goal. That's not what we do.

23:12Dominka: Can you tell me what a really proper, successful briefing with a client looked like, one where a good foundation for working together was laid?

23:25Ivan: A concrete example. Yes, I remember a client who, I think, came from the real estate industry. The challenge there was that our partner at the time was taking an approach like this for the first time. And our clients didn't know what they could expect from it. They had so many ideas about which products we should actually enter the market with, and from our point of view it was a bit too much. In the end we did A/B testing, and in the end it turned out to be spot on. Because in the first month, when we pursued two tracks like that, we saw: okay, Plan A isn't working that well, Plan B works much, much better. We're going to push ahead harder with Plan B. And it was very successful there. Lots of meetings came about. Our client was very satisfied with what he heard: not only with the meetings, but also with the feedback from the market that he got from our BDRs.

24:27Dominka: Exactly, they get a great deal of background knowledge that they maybe didn't know themselves, or they get confirmation once again: Aha, that really is the case. That's sometimes really important too. You just mentioned something, or I could hear it in your sentence: that the project phase here takes two weeks, but actually goes beyond that. It's not like: Hey, two weeks, we're done now, now everything's perfect. You run tests, you see whether it fits well or not. Actually, project preparation takes a bit longer after all.

Ivan: Exactly.

25:08Dominka: The setup is more of a fixed, set approach where you say: we need this, this and this, that's important for us. But you still have to bring a bit of patience and say: "Hey, listen, this is how we went through it, we're ready, but now it really starts. Now the real feedback comes." What you've told us so far is good, but the truth only comes out through the few calls we make. And then we come back with the feedback and have to change everything again, right?

25:38Ivan: Yes, you put that very well.

25:40Dominka: Yes, well, I was a project lead once too, of course.

25:43Dominka: And that brings us straight to the next point: how the client side teaches us what they actually do, what the products are or what the service is. We've already touched on that a bit through the things we've discussed. But one thing above all is important here: how do we make sure from our side that our team is ready to answer potential customers' questions accurately, well and confidently? I think a client also asks questions like that before starting with us: how do you make sure he gives exactly the right answer?

26:24Ivan: There are many ways this is ensured. For example, we of course always create the call guide. It's not only reviewed by us, the client also gets to see how we've envisioned the whole thing. On top of that, we always get feedback from the client, through the weekly briefings that we ultimately hold with the client.

26:57Dominka: Exactly. I think the saying here is also: practice makes the master (German saying: you only master it by doing it), through making calls with us, or rather for the client. And that way, over time, it can be ensured that it fits, and not that it fits right off the bat, right?

27:14Ivan: No, not right off the bat. We actually need our clients' feedback.

27:21Dominka: Yes. So answering customer questions directly is something where you can say: that will never be 100 percent the case. But there's a very good fallback method, namely: you don't have to present yourself as an expert in the first call. You're someone who's there to first sniff out whether the potential customer fits us at all. If he potentially fits, then we also make the effort to keep going. If he really doesn't fit us, then we won't book an extra meeting either. And the essential thing is also not to try to sell the whole thing right there in the call. That's not the point of what we do here, right?

28:03Ivan: Exactly. We're there to bring potential customers together with our partners. If there's interest: book a meeting. The main points and possibly the technical things can then be discussed in the meetings.

28:16Dominka: Exactly. Okay. So what are the resources and methods we use to make sure our team is well informed about what it will later be selling? What all do we do with the clients in the setup?

28:31Ivan: Oh, lots. First, we have a questionnaire in which the client introduces himself in his own words. So specifically about the company, about the product, about the service, and which potential contacts would be right for us. That's actually also our first touchpoint with our clients' product or service. After that, in the preparation phase, we prepare a number of questions that we'd ask in the setup meeting, based on the questionnaire we received. We actually talk with the client a great deal. Yes. Communication, communication, communication.

29:22Dominka: Yes. That's really the essential part. But the whole thing makes no sense at all if there's no infrastructure behind it, or rather no technical preparation. And we do that from our side too. So what are the essential points that we handle from our side, deliver directly to the client, or where we help the client do a setup for it?

29:45Ivan: I'll start with the CRM we'd use to process and enter all the data, so the client can see it too. After that we have to set up a phone number, and we have various options there. The first step there is also to define an alias that the BDR would use during the project: how he or she would introduce themselves. Preparing documents, which I've already mentioned several times. Defining the database, that's very important. You actually have to talk about it a lot in order to build the right database. Many things are important there: the industry, the company size, the revenue they generate, how many employees they have, which departments, whether they're large corporations or smaller companies. There really are a great many attributes you have to go through and think about in order to run a good prospecting campaign.

30:49Dominka: Good, next point: adapting and personalizing the whole thing. It's important that we can put ourselves in the client's skin, or in their shoes. What do we do in the setup to look as if we were part of the company? And what do we also do beyond the setup to really fit a bit more into the whole employee picture?

31:20Ivan: What's very important here is the email address we create for our project. After the call, some documents have to be sent out. And that actually has to go out from an email address generated by the client, so that we really appear as part of the team, as part of the company we're doing the prospecting for.

31:45Dominka: When it comes to personalization, it's not just that we do it in the first setup. Of course we try to get much deeper into our partner's landscape, so that we really understand much better how the whole thing works. That's why it's not unusual for us to pay our partners a visit every now and then.

32:08Ivan: Of course. I recently had a case like that too, where we went to one of our clients. That was also exactly the point when we changed our project a bit. We had found a new approach, and of course, as part of the team, we then went to Dresden and also got to know each other in person there. And there we defined a new project direction together.

32:36Dominka: That's the personal side of it. Of course a lot happens online with us, that's the case at most companies. But exactly that came up every now and then: "Oh, you're too remote." That's actually not the case. We're also the ones who are ready to show up right at the client's for the setup and say: "Yes, we can do it that way too." And actually, I think, over all these years it's turned out to be best to really do the setup online from your armchair. And later, once you've been on the road with the client for a while: "Hey, let's just see whether we can meet in person to spice things up a bit." And that's, I think, even the better solution than starting on site right away, along the lines of "Hey, here, come over", and then we've learned a lot and haven't been able to implement any of it. Better to take small steps: "Hey, this is what matters, this is what you get from us now." And then we go step by step and can meet again after a while.

33:39Ivan: Yes, on site, in person, you can also go through more things than in one or two hours in an online meeting. Then we're there with the client for quite a while.

33:50Dominka: And you get to smell each other too. That's also a thing.

33:53Ivan: You can see how the other side breathes.

33:56Dominka: Exactly, you can almost feel it if he sits too close.

33:59Dominka: Good, there's another important thing for us, not just personalization, but also what's behind it that helps make a project really successful. That's not just the right attitude, but also the whole team behind it. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Is it always just one person doing the whole thing, or are there several who really make sure everything is above board?

34:22Ivan: Always just one person.

34:24Dominka: Okay, good. You, right? You do everything: you make the calls, you're the project lead and you check your own calls too.

34:30Ivan: Right. Multitasking.

34:32Dominka: Multitasking, that's your strength.

34:36Ivan: Of course we have a whole team. There's me, or my colleagues too, who stand behind the BDRs as project managers. There can be one or several BDRs involved in the project, which of course depends on the scope of the project. On top of that there's always a backup, in case our BDR wants to go on vacation or, let's say, gets sick. So the backup can step in completely normally, without anything getting lost or us simply skipping anything. No, it carries on continuously. And very important here is also our Quality Assurance Manager, Martin.

35:20Dominka: We'll invite him sometime too.

35:22Ivan: Yes, I was just about to say, he definitely has to come here once too. He'll be very happy.

35:26Dominka: He already told me today.

35:28Ivan: So he can hardly wait. Yes, Martin is actually more in the background here. During the project, of course, where he works with the BDRs and tries to find new ways and new phrasings, new ways, for example, to fight your way past the switchboard. But during project preparation too, he's a very, very important part of our team. Having a colleague like that on board is always better than one head or two heads. Several heads are always better.

36:01Dominka: Exactly. And precisely because it's a team of several people, it's also much easier to master challenges and find solutions.

36:14Dominka: So, let's go straight over to the next topic: what are the problems that come your way, especially in the setup and then in the first weeks?

36:23Ivan: In the first weeks it's understanding the subject. I've been doing this for three years now, and it can happen that the subject repeats itself on some projects. For me, some points are then so obvious …

36:39Dominka: But not for the BDR.

36:40Ivan: Exactly, not for the BDR. Then it's always good that we all together … I have this thing: we sit down together 15 minutes before the first setup, talk the whole thing through once more and go through our questions. We just do that together to find a solution faster.

37:00Dominka: Okay. And are there also mistakes you've learned from? Where you say: okay, that could help make project preparation even better?

37:14Ivan: Yes, there are. There's always something. I wouldn't directly say that something goes wrong, but rather …

37:24Dominka: … that the whole thing maybe gets delayed a bit instead.

37:27Ivan: Exactly, that it drags on a bit. You've miscalculated the time a bit: okay, I thought I'd manage to build the database with 1,000 company names in one day and check the whole thing. You can't do that.

37:41Dominka: But exactly this thing with the delay is something that became clear to us over the years: if the client really isn't ready on their side and doesn't manage to send us the things we need, then it's a bit of a pain for us. Because then it takes away the precious time we need for our setup, for our project, right?

38:04Ivan: Right.

38:05Dominka: Exactly. Okay, my glass is empty. We've already arrived at the last point, and a very important one: communication and collaboration with the client afterwards, with our partner, as we call them once they've become a partner. What's really the most important thing in client feedback and in the further collaboration after the setup is done?

38:32Ivan: What's important is that we sit down together at least once a week. We have our half-hour briefing meetings, which can also run a bit longer or shorter, where we simply talk about the past week. The good sides and the bad sides. We're always very transparent and also really value passing it on just as it is.

38:57Dominka: Yes, okay. That's, I think, really the most important thing of all: hiding nothing and maintaining transparency, just as we present it at the start in all our pitches. That we really want to communicate very openly and are part of the team.

39:14Ivan: Exactly. Showing unity, and that what was promised at the start is also shown in the project.

39:22Dominka: Great. That's how it should be.

39:24Dominka: For the end of this episode we've prepared a little game, and it's called "Never have I ever". I'll read you a few sentences that are very closely connected to what you do. You can raise your hand and say yes if you've done it, and no if you really haven't. You could actually do this with a drink too, but we'll just keep it nice and rustic. So, Ivan: Never have I ever sent an email to the client without the attachment. I'm raising my hand.

39:59Ivan: I have.

40:00Dominka: I have, several times.

40:01Ivan: Last week.

40:02Dominka: Okay. Never have I ever addressed the client by the wrong name.

40:09Ivan: Not me.

40:11Dominka: Oh, definitely.

40:12Ivan: I think once I addressed someone wrong in writing, and I apologized right away.

40:16Dominka: Yes, in writing too, that's true. Never have I ever overslept an important business meeting.

40:22Ivan: That I haven't. No.

40:25Dominka: So we're still that professional, then. Never have I ever turned off just my camera in a video conference to do something else.

40:35Ivan: I have.

40:36Dominka: I'll admit it quite openly.

40:37Ivan: The most common thing that happens to me there: my laptop battery dies and the charger is nowhere nearby. Then I have to turn the camera off to go get it.

40:48Dominka: Yes, but that's still fine if you turn it off and don't disturb people. These days I've also got this mutt at home, and then I don't even manage to turn the camera off and have to somehow shove him away. So it's much more charming when the camera's off for once. And then the last statement: Never have I ever accidentally clicked "Reply all" and sent an embarrassing message to the whole team.

41:25Ivan: No. I really don't think so.

41:27Dominka: I don't think I have either. But it's happened to me that I received one like that.

41:31Ivan: What kind was it?

41:32Dominka: Someone was badmouthing me. I found it funny. I can laugh about it, all good.

41:46Dominka: Good, that's actually it. We can draw a quick conclusion. Preparation is super important. Without preparation it doesn't work for us, and that should be the case for others too. It's important to have a very good team behind you so the whole thing can be seen from several perspectives. We don't believe that too many people spoil the broth (German saying, usually 'too many cooks'). And third: communication with the client is the key to a good collaboration that should also last a long time.

42:15Ivan: Exactly. Always keep the client in the loop. He has to know at every step of the project how it's going. And then the client also has complete trust in us. And that actually lifts the whole mood.

42:29Dominka: And finally, I'd like to say: The customer isn't always right.

42:34Ivan: Spot on.

Dominka: And that's how it should be.

42:36Dominka: Because we're the experts in our field, and so we're probably allowed to have a say too. Thank you so much for the podcast we recorded today. Hopefully it was exciting for the listeners. For me it was great. And if I could raise a glass now, I would, but unfortunately that's not possible anymore.

42:54Ivan: Nah, thank you. It was a pleasure to finally be here in the famous podcast studio.

43:01Dominka: And the last time for you. Oh no, just kidding. Good.