Cold calling without “talent”? How to crack objections with technique, rituals & prep
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In this episode
Episode 28 of Dialing Out. Dominka talks with Franjo Papec, BDR at OB2B, about objection handling without talent: nobody is born for sales, but technique, preparation and rituals can be learned, and hard work can beat talent.
You'll hear Franjo's three points of preparation, why a harsh objection comes maybe once in 1,200 calls, how a call where he was called pushy turned into an inquiry, why opening with “this is a cold call” grates and how four tactics fare in Top or Flop.
Read time: 16 minutes
We discuss
- Episode 28: Franjo's start at OB2B and cold-water swimming
- Talent or experience: how do you get better?
- Does Franjo have talent? Less talented, more hard-working
- Three things to prepare before a cold call
- Focus ritual and priorities in the pipeline
- Being prepared for the worst
- Don't bury a botched objection
- Talking it through: the call where Franjo was called pushy
- Dominka's reality check: calling “into the void”
- “Completely unprepared?” Then it's no match
- Practising objections with AI, objection as a chance
- Bringing life and feeling into the call
- Why the opener “this is a cold call” grates
- Top or Flop 1: pitching without questions
- Top or Flop 2: ignoring objections
- Top or Flop 3: one follow-up, then waiting
- Top or Flop 4: telling everything at once
- “We don't sell toothbrushes”
- Objection equals good pre-qualification
- Using the short time on the phone well
- Are good talkers good BDRs?
- Wrap-up: just give it a try
Show Notes
Click a timestamp to start the video at that point.
0:57Episode 28: How long has Franjo been at OB2B?
Since June 1st three years ago: Franjo gives the date himself after Dominka guesses “late spring three years ago”. Dominka is pleased that in the 28th episode she finally says the podcast's full name without stumbling, a name she helped invent. A former colleague who went swimming even in winter brings the two of them to the episode's question: is that talent or technique? Franjo's answer: “Cold-water swimming isn't talent, you really have to practise it.”
- Franjo started at OB2B on June 1st three years ago.
- Dominka helped invent the name Dialing Out and in episode 28 finally says it without stumbling.
- Toughening up, like for cold-water swimming, is something you have to work for, says Franjo, it isn't a talent.
6:08How do you become a better salesperson: talent or experience?
Through experience, simple as that, says Franjo. Character helps at the start: someone who is more open and finds it easier to put sentences together is a good salesperson from the beginning. But that doesn't mean someone more introverted won't end up a good salesperson: what matters is how much you give of yourself to the job and how much you want to improve. His attitude: “Hard work can beat talent.”
- For Dominka, objection handling isn't necessarily tied to talent, today is about technique.
- The verbally gifted get a better starting position, not automatically the better result.
- Franjo: what counts is how much you want to improve in the job.
7:37Does Franjo have a talent for objection handling?
Not really, he says himself: what's innate is that he's good with people. He built his know-how and self-confidence through long years and many calls. Dominka sums it up: “Less talented, more hard-working.” For her, talent evaporates quickly if you don't put some structure around it, whether in sport, drawing or painting. Franjo adds that talent declines without care and constant work.
- Franjo: being good with people is innate, sales he learned through hard work.
- Dominka: talent evaporates and decays quickly without structure.
- Franjo: it's nice when you can see talent, it's better when you can develop it.
9:44What three things should you prepare before a cold call?
Topic, ritual and CRM, says Franjo. First, script and topic knowledge, so that you're “like a fish in water”: if you can swim in the topic, you also handle objections more easily that you didn't prepare for. Second, a small ritual to start the day, such as chatting with colleagues and having a coffee, so you're relaxed when the calls begin. Third, going through the CRM before calling: who do I have to call today, where is a tough conversation waiting? If you're missing a piece of information on the phone, Dominka says you can say in a friendly way that you'll get back by email or in a new call.
- Preparing for the topic and preparing in the CRM are two different kinds of preparation, says Franjo.
- The goal, according to Dominka: not to go blank the moment an objection comes.
- Franjo's line for knowledge gaps: “I'm just the sales guy. You're very welcome to discuss that with my expert in a meeting.”
13:07Focus ritual and priorities: which calls count today?
A small focus ritual and clear priorities, Dominka adds: talking to colleagues, going to the gym in the morning, making a coffee, then knowing the contact and checking the pipeline for what today's task actually is. Her example is a colleague with a long-running project: she sits down every day, sees around 70 tasks she won't get through anyway, and moves the ones without priority, for instance when she knows she wouldn't get through today. If instead you know there are maybe 20 calls you really want to make today, you're ready, whatever the contact says.
- Dominka calls it a distraction or focus ritual.
- Move tasks without priority to another date if you wouldn't get through today anyway.
- Around 20 important calls a day are quick to picture in a short preparation.
15:13Why should you be prepared for the worst?
Because an attitude like that “usually saves your head”, says Franjo. The worst case is a contact who doesn't like salespeople, has no time, has to do 100 other things at once and ends with: please don't call anymore. According to Franjo that doesn't happen often, “maybe once in 1,200 calls, give or take”. If you're mentally prepared for it, only the best can happen after that.
- The worst case: no time, no patience for salespeople, “please don't call anymore”.
- According to Franjo, a call like that comes roughly once in 1,200 calls.
- Preparing mentally for the worst is, for Franjo, the technique.
16:10Why shouldn't you bury an objection you botched?
Because the best salespeople learn from exactly those situations, says Dominka. Everyone has had an objection they couldn't handle and would rather forget. She advises writing such situations down and seeing them not as a defeat but as a chance to improve. Franjo asks himself concrete questions afterwards: what went wrong, which questions couldn't I answer and why, do I need more preparation, do I need to talk to my PM? Or was it simply a bad day: “Was the coffee too sweet or was the gym session too short?”
- Dominka: write unpleasant calls down instead of burying them.
- Franjo: even the worst call can give you incredibly good feedback.
- Franjo's questions go as far as checking in with the PM or the partners.
18:02Talking it through: the call where Franjo was called pushy
Talk to someone about it, Dominka advises, when you've embarrassed yourself or feel stupid. Franjo tells of a contact he reached after five attempts, calling once a week: “You're so pushy. We were actually considering you, but not anymore.” Three weeks later an inquiry came in from that very company: for Franjo, his assertiveness paid off. Calls like that hit you hard, “and that's where you actually show what you're made of”.
- Five attempts, once a week, then “please don't contact us again”, and three weeks later an inquiry.
- After the call Franjo first needed a coffee and some quiet, and talked it over with colleagues.
- Some shake it off without reflecting, others don't want to make another call that day.
20:26Dominka's reality check: “You're just calling into the void here”
Poor preparation backfires even when you're already good: Dominka was doing well in her first project and thought “wow, I'm really good” when a contact took her apart in the very first call. His words: “You're just calling into the void here. You haven't really done any research.” She had gone in cold and asked what the company does in marketing, and that was around her 40th week, not her first. Since then her rule is that this mustn't happen again, and she says the man actually helped her a lot. Franjo thinks a reality check is good, but finds the delivery “a bit too much”.
- It was about marketing and e-commerce, and Dominka got past the switchboard straight to the contact.
- The call happened around week 40, not week one.
- Dominka's lesson: think more about what she says on the phone, and have something ready quickly.
23:39What to do when a client asks: “Did you come in here completely unprepared?”
Then you're simply not a match: a year ago, Dominka and Valentina only asked in a meeting how the client's sales team is set up, and got back: “Did you come in here completely unprepared?” They parted ways quickly without starting the pitch, because that answer is something you can only get from the client. Franjo says you don't have to work with people like that: of course he knows the topic and the basics, but “it's not my job to know everything”.
- The question in the meeting: “What do you actually do in sales?”
- If someone doesn't want to talk about it, for Dominka that's no match, and that's okay too.
- Franjo: you don't have to be prepared for every situation, but confident enough to get through even the worst.
25:23How do beginners prepare for objections?
With every tool available online, Dominka advises, for example an AI: “Hey, what do I do if he says this and that?” You shouldn't adopt the answer one to one, but you know that others have had these problems before. Her principle: don't see everything as a defeat but as a chance to do something better, because “an objection is just a chance. To hang up or to keep going.” Franjo adds: the question is whether you're willing to acquire the knowledge to use that chance.
- Dominka: don't adopt AI answers one to one, but get ready for those situations.
- An objection is a chance: to hang up or to keep going.
- Franjo: you have to be willing to acquire the knowledge.
26:47How much life and feeling belongs in a cold call?
A lot, but not too much: Dominka takes cold calls to hear how others do it, and sometimes gives them a tip: “Just try putting a bit of life into it.” Franjo once told a caller: “I'll buy it from you, but convince me. Be full of life”, and the caller hung up. According to Franjo, you learn emotion, humanity and smiling over time; Dominka warns: “Not too happy, that annoys some people too.” Franjo's conclusion: “Nobody is born for sales. But anyone can learn it”.
- Dominka has “a bit of a helper syndrome” and gives cold callers feedback on their pitch.
- Franjo did the same once, just to annoy the caller, who hung up.
- Cheerful and smiling, yes; too happy, no.
30:07Why does the opener “this is a cold call” grate?
Because it's worn out: for Dominka it's a cringe thing “you could already see that on YouTube 15 years ago”. Recently someone with a very good product called her like that. The pitch wasn't bad, and he asked a question she had no real answer to, but she would avoid that opener. Franjo knows a guy on Instagram who packages it as a joke: “If I told you this was a cold call, would you throw your phone against the wall right now?” Whatever the answer, he asks how hard and against which wall, “and that's where the conversation starts”.
- Dominka still gives every caller a chance, so as not to bring bad energy into anyone's calls.
- A good question in the pitch made the call interesting for Dominka, despite the opener.
- Franjo: you have to know how to package an opener like that.
32:43Top or Flop 1: Start with the pitch, without asking questions?
Flop, says Franjo: if you start with the whole pitch, you're giving a monologue when it should become a dialogue in which you find out what the other person needs. His alternative: “two, three sentences about the whole why and what for, and then the question of whether that's interesting”. According to Dominka, many people rattle it off quickly because they're afraid of an objection. Franjo counters: better an objection right away, and then work through it “like a human being”.
- The game Top or Flop: four sales techniques, each with a short reason.
- Two, three sentences of context, then ask whether that's interesting.
- Anyone who rattles it off is usually afraid of an objection, says Dominka.
34:10Top or Flop 2: Ignore objections and keep going?
Flop, says Franjo, in what by his count is the sixth episode on objection handling. Dominka's example of ignoring: “We don't have any money.” – “You know what? It doesn't cost anything at all. Let's keep talking.” The worst part: with some people it would work, which Dominka calls the law of large numbers. Franjo's verdict: “in theory yes, in practice please don't”, the chances are very, very low.
- After about six episodes on objection handling, Franjo is clear: objections have to be handled.
- Calling through and ignoring objections only works by the law of large numbers.
- Someone might say “Thank you for being so persistent and pushy” and buy, but that's very rare.
35:18Top or Flop 3: Send one follow-up and wait?
Flop, and it's what annoys Dominka most: OB2B books a well pre-qualified, warm-to-hot lead who takes the time to listen to the partner's pitch, and afterwards there's no follow-up, or just one follow-up email, and then everyone waits for the lead to get in touch. Franjo: “That doesn't work. You have to be active in the sales process”, especially with a hot lead. In email marketing many swear by open rates, but Dominka doesn't believe in a satisfying conversion rate for cold mailing. Franjo: if there is one, it's a very low one.
- This is about the partner who doesn't follow up after the booked meeting and their pitch.
- A pre-qualified, warm-to-hot lead needs active follow-up, says Franjo.
- Dominka has never done cold mailing herself and doubts its conversion rate.
37:05Top or Flop 4: Tell the lead everything at once?
For Franjo a “Klop”, somewhere between top and flop: features yes, but not all at once, rather in the conversation, depending on what the lead says. If you tell everything and “blast the whole thing out like a machine”, the other person keeps very little. Dominka would rather call it a flop: teasing a little is okay, but not everything in one call.
- Mention features when they fit what the lead is saying.
- If you tell everything at once, the other person remembers only a few things.
- Franjo: Klop. Dominka: more of a flop, teasing is okay.
38:30What is the cold call for, and what is the pitch for?
The cold call should spark interest, ask about it and pre-qualify the person well, says Dominka. Setting yourself up as the star who knows everything belongs in the pitch later: “We don't sell toothbrushes”, but complex products or services. In the past, colleagues with a lot of background knowledge explained so much in the first call that prospects no longer wanted a meeting, they wanted an offer straight away, and that never turned into a good collaboration. Franjo: if you want a partnership, you want it to last for years.
- The cold call sparks and checks interest; the depth comes in the meeting.
- Too much explaining on the phone led to requests for offers instead of meetings.
- In the one case where a collaboration happened, the client never really understood the structure.
40:24Why is an objection the best pre-qualification?
Because without an objection you can't pre-qualify the person well, says Dominka: “Objection equals great chance.” If the contact asks “Can you do this and that?”, the interest is there, and you can suggest a conversation with the expert. On the phone everyone is in a hurry; in a meeting someone takes time specifically for that person and not for a pipeline full of prospects. Her conclusion: “Objections are always welcome.”
- Questions about what you offer show interest and are a reason for the conversation with the expert.
- In a meeting, the prospect is also mentally prepared to listen to the topic.
- Dominka's encouragement to everyone who gets objections: objection equals great chance.
41:40How do you use the short time on the phone?
To your own advantage and without showing any rush, says Dominka: the time is limited, both sides are in a hurry, but “Nobody can notice that you're in a hurry, though.” That's exactly the best moment to suggest a meeting where both take their time, also as an answer to an objection: “Let's take the time for the important topic at another point.” Franjo's version: “Okay, I can see you don't have time right now. We're happy to set up a call for next week”. That way, says Franjo, you show you're an experienced BDR.
- Dominka's checklist: know what you can say, rituals, good preparation for the person.
- Don't show time pressure, turn it into a meeting.
- When someone has no time, offer a call next week.
43:02Are good talkers automatically good BDRs?
No, says Franjo: there are people who talk a lot, talk nicely and can tell incredible stories, but that doesn't automatically make them good BDRs. Asking good questions, getting organised and showing empathy are things you learn through the sales process and many calls. His definition: “A good BDR is a BDR who has invested a lot of time in calls and in themselves.” Dominka adds: don't always be in a hurry, reflect, talk with colleagues and take more time to prepare a good meeting.
- Questions, organisation and empathy are learned through many calls.
- Franjo: a good BDR invests time in calls and in themselves.
- Dominka: take your time on the phone, but even more for preparing the meeting.
44:22Wrap-up: why you should simply give sales a try
Because the worst that can happen, says Franjo, is that the other person says “Not interested”, “and then you're still alive”. The episode is for everyone who hasn't dared to take a sales job so far, and for everyone with a bit of self-doubt: “Just give it a try.” Dominka's conclusion: objections are a core part of a good cold call, and Franjo adds: “And a chance to make the best of it.”
- For beginners with self-doubt: just give it a try.
- According to Dominka, objections are a core part of a good cold call.
- At the end Dominka calls Franjo the star BDR “who just shoots down every objection”.
Key takeaways
- In cold calling nobody is born for sales: objection handling is a technique, and it can be learned through experience and hard work.
- Talent helps at the start, says Franjo Papec, but someone introverted can also end up a very good salesperson.
- Franjo's three points before a cold call: topic knowledge like a fish in water, a ritual to start the day and a look at the CRM.
- If you don't know an answer, point in a friendly way to an email, a new call or the expert in a meeting.
- A really harsh objection like “please don't call anymore” comes roughly once in 1,200 calls, according to Franjo.
- Write down calls that went wrong, talk them over with colleagues and ask specifically what to do differently next time.
- Three weeks after a prospect called him pushy, Franjo got an inquiry from that same company, after calling once a week.
- A cold call starts with two, three sentences on the why and what for and the question of whether that's interesting, not with the whole pitch.
- The cold call sparks interest and pre-qualifies. Explain everything on the phone and you get requests for offers instead of meetings.
- An objection is the best pre-qualification: without an objection you can't pre-qualify the person well.
Pull quotes
“Nobody is born for sales. But anyone can learn it if they invest the time, the energy.”
“You don't have to know everything, you don't have to be prepared for every situation either, but you have to be confident enough to get through even the worst situation.”
“Don't always see everything as a defeat, just see everything as a chance to do something better. I think that's the be-all and end-all of objection handling.”
Guest
Franjo Papec — BDR, OB2B
Dominka Babić — COO, OB2B (Host)
FAQ
Do you need talent for cold calling?
No. Franjo Papec says you become a better salesperson through experience; an open character only gives you a better starting position. Introverts can become very good salespeople too, what matters is how much you want to improve: “Hard work can beat talent.”
How do you prepare for objections in a cold call?
With three things, says Franjo: topic knowledge so you're like a fish in water, a small ritual to start the day and a look at the CRM to see who you're calling today and where a tough conversation is waiting. Dominka adds: set priorities and be ready for the worst.
What do you say in a cold call when you don't know the answer?
You can say in a friendly way that you'll check and get back by email or in a new call, says Dominka. Franjo's version: “I'm just the sales guy. You're very welcome to discuss that with my expert in a meeting.”
How often does a really harsh objection come up in cold calling?
Rarely. A contact who doesn't like salespeople, has no time and says “please don't call anymore” comes up maybe once in 1,200 calls, according to Franjo. Preparing mentally for it usually saves your head, he says.
What should you do after a cold call that went wrong?
Don't bury it: write it down, learn from it and talk to someone about it, Dominka advises. Afterwards Franjo asks himself what went wrong, which questions he couldn't answer and whether he needs more preparation, or whether it was simply a bad day.
Should you open a cold call with “this is a cold call”?
Dominka advises against it: the opener is worn out and cringe, you could already see it on YouTube 15 years ago. Franjo thinks you have to package it well, for example as a joke like a guy on Instagram who asks whether you'd throw your phone against the wall right now.
How much should you say about the product in a cold call?
Not everything at once. Franjo recommends two, three sentences on the why and what for, then the question of whether that's interesting. He only mentions features when they fit what the contact says. For Dominka the cold call is there to spark interest and pre-qualify; the depth belongs in the meeting.
Why is an objection in a cold call a chance?
Because without an objection you can't pre-qualify the person well, says Dominka. For her, “an objection is just a chance. To hang up or to keep going.” Anyone who asks about what you offer is showing interest, and that's exactly when a conversation with the expert pays off.
Transcript6,137 words · approx. 28 min readShowHide
Translated from German. The episode was recorded in German.
0:57Episode 28: How long has Franjo been at OB2B?
0:57Dominka: A warm welcome to a new episode of Dialing Out, the OB2B Podcast. Hats off, I did it! Finally, in the 28th episode, I've learned to say the full name of our podcast without stumbling. Which is actually pretty strange, because …
1:22Franjo: You've been here 28 times.
1:25Dominka: Yes, and I even helped come up with the name. I was there when it was created. That's a sign of …
Franjo: From above.
1:44Dominka: … from above, or what I wanted to say: of getting older.
1:47Franjo: No, no, that's not a sign of getting older. Certainly not.
1:51Dominka: But the day before yesterday I got a compliment. I dug up a few things from the past about people I've known for a long time, and they were like: “Wow, what a memory you've got!” And I was like: “A bad memory. I have a bad memory, but a good conscience.”
2:11Franjo: Okay, why do you think you have a bad memory?
2:13Dominka: I somehow don't have the feeling that I'm some kind of super machine when it comes to remembering things. But maybe I am. Maybe they're just duds.
2:24Franjo: Question.
Dominka: Okay, I'm ready.
2:26Franjo: When did I start with us?
2:32Dominka: It was summer.
Franjo: Nope.
2:35Dominka: It was spring. But it was late spring. It was late spring three years ago.
2:45Franjo: Exactly. Which date?
2:47Dominka: I don't know the date for anyone except myself.
2:52Franjo: The first of June.
2:53Dominka: The first of June? Sorry, that's summer for me.
2:57Franjo: No, that's late spring.
Dominka: That's summer for me.
3:02Franjo: No, not yet.
3:04Dominka: Okay, yes, not by the calendar.
Franjo: Thank you.
3:10Dominka: But it feels like summer already.
3:14Franjo: Potato, potato, as they say.
3:17Dominka: Does summer really only start for you on June 21st?
3:20Franjo: Yes, if not even later.
Dominka: Swot. (Streber: German for a teacher's pet who studies too hard)
3:23Franjo: Thank you. At school I was always a swot, not the swot. I always wanted to know things and understand the whole thing, not just learn it by heart. That's a big difference.
3:36Dominka: But right now, now that you say that: you have to admit quite openly that summer starts earlier.
3:44Franjo: Yes. In the last two years.
3:47Dominka: And for me, summer feels like it starts on the first of June. For me that's high season.
3:52Franjo: High season. The season has already started, people are already working by the sea.
3:57Dominka: When does summer end for you?
4:01Franjo: Mid-August?
4:03Dominka: Mid-August already?
4:06Franjo: Theoretically, yes.
4:08Dominka: I always give it a chance until September 1st. September 1st is autumn for me. Straight into autumn.
4:16Franjo: But then it works: if you start on the first of June, that's three months, one quarter.
4:23Dominka: Yes, true. Although it's still very warm in September too.
4:29Franjo: You can still go swimming if you want, in the sea. You can go swimming all year round.
Dominka: That's true.
4:35Franjo: The question is whether you're hardened enough for it.
4:41Dominka: A former colleague of ours, raise a glass to our colleague, she always went swimming in winter too. Crazy, right?
4:54Franjo: Yes, I totally get it.
4:59Dominka: Yes, crazy. Would you say …
5:05Franjo: … that she was born for it?
5:07Dominka: That's what I was just about to say: is it talent, or did she get there with technique?
5:14Franjo: Cold-water swimming isn't talent, you really have to practise it.
5:20Dominka: So you're saying you're not a warm showerer? (Warmduscher: German slang for a softie)
5:24Franjo: I'm not a warm showerer.
Dominka: Wouldn't have thought so either.
5:28Franjo: Thank you. No, but it really is something you have to work for, the hardening.
Dominka: Not taking warm showers.
5:37Franjo: Exactly, but rather cold showers, so you can slowly get your body used to the extreme situation.
5:45Dominka: I'm a warm showerer. No, I'm a hot showerer. I love burning myself, even in summer.
5:52Franjo: In summer that's actually okay. But in winter not so good.
5:56Dominka: In winter it's perfect, believe me. Try taking a warm shower. Maybe something really exciting will happen to you.
6:08How do you become a better salesperson: talent or experience?
6:08Dominka: Listen, we're on a very important topic, and once again with you: objection handling, but today from the perspective of technique. Objection handling isn't necessarily something tied to talent. How do you become a better salesperson?
6:37Franjo: Through experience, simple as that. Of course your character can help a little: if you're a bit more open, for example, and find it easier to put sentences together, then of course you're a good salesperson right from the start. But that doesn't mean that someone who's a bit more introverted, for example, won't end up being a good salesperson. So I'd say: even if the starting position is a bit different, because someone is a bit more gifted with language, there's still every chance that both people can be very good salespeople. The only question is how much you can give of yourself to the job and how much you want to improve in the job. That's the most important thing. Because hard work can beat talent. That's my attitude on this.
7:37Does Franjo have a talent for objection handling?
7:37Dominka: Would you say for yourself that you have talent when it comes to objection handling and sales?
7:47Franjo: I'd say that I'm good with people. That's the thing that's really innate. But when it comes to sales, I think I got most of my know-how through the long years and the many phone calls, and also the confidence to handle the whole thing, to sit here and be able to talk like this. So I think: it's a good start, as I said, but I got to this point through hard work. So I'd say: rather less.
8:28Dominka: Rather less. Less talented, more hard-working.
Franjo: Exactly.
8:34Dominka: See? And the impression you give is that you're also very talented. That probably has to do with the fact that you have everything you do under control. But I take your word for it. And I'd also say it really is a question of how the whole thing is built. I'd say talent evaporates quickly and decays very quickly if you don't put something together structurally. Whether it's sport or, I don't know, drawing, painting and so on.
9:19Franjo: I completely agree. Talent is a great thing, every one of us wants to be talented at something. But if you don't nurture that talent and develop it through constant work, it will surely just fade at some point. So: it's nice if you can see the talent, but it's better if you can develop it.
9:44What three things should you prepare before a cold call?
9:44Dominka: Now for the viewers and listeners out there: the topic today is actually objection handling without talent. Nobody is a born seller, we're aware of that. There are people who certainly bring a bit more talent, in the sense that they're really very eloquent, that they know how to get people onto their track a bit, that they can improvise in situations and find a solution quickly. But that's nothing you can't learn, maybe from such people, maybe from your own mistakes. The essential thing here is technique, and that can be learned. What are the technical things you should prepare for a phone call that's very likely a cold call, because that's what we're talking about, so that you don't immediately black out when you hit an objection? Which three points would you say should always be there?
10:46Franjo: Okay. Always prepare, so the script knowledge, the topic knowledge, so that you roughly know … so that you're like a fish in water. That's how I'd put it. If you can swim in the topic, you can also handle objections more easily that you haven't prepared for.
11:07Dominka: So prepare well on the subject you want to present.
11:12Franjo: Exactly, that would be the first thing. The second thing would be having little rituals: drinking coffee, talking to colleagues, I don't know, going to the gym, for example …
Dominka: A gym session before every phone call.
11:27Franjo: That would be fantastic. No, but before the workday, for example for the start of a good workday: chatting a bit with colleagues, drinking a bit of coffee, so you can just relax and are already in modus operandi when you start making the calls. So the second thing would simply be a ritual for the start of the day.
11:50Franjo: And I'd also say: before you even make calls, read through the CRM a bit and see who you have to call today, who you don't want to call, where you know: okay, now I'm going to have a tough conversation, I have to prepare especially well for that. Or for example: I have a contact I'm on first-name terms with, where I say: you, I'm going to get you one day, my friend. But he hasn't got back to me yet, because he knows he still owes me something. That's part of the preparation too. But I'd say that the preparation with the CRM and with the topic are two different preparations you have to do. So those would be the three things.
12:32Dominka: Three things, I'd say again then. So: be well prepared on the topic. But also keep in mind: if you don't have a piece of information or can't pull it out off the top of your head, you can always say, in a friendly and nice way, that you'd like to check that and get back to them by email or with another phone call. Right?
12:56Franjo: “I'm just the sales guy. You're very welcome to discuss that with my expert in a meeting.”
13:03Dominka: Exactly, with the colleague who knows more about it.
13:07Focus ritual and priorities: which calls count today?
13:07Dominka: Second: some kind of distraction or rather focus… having something that focuses you on work first and foremost. Maybe just: okay, I'm talking to my colleagues now. I'm going to the gym in the morning. I'm making myself a coffee now. Oh, ritual is the word! A distraction or rather focus ritual. Having a little ritual for yourself. Maybe going to the toilet properly one more time. And then third: knowing your contact. Looking at the pipeline, looking at: what is my task today anyway? And I'd add: setting priorities.
13:57Dominka: Just today I talked to a colleague of ours. She actually has a really great project that she's been working on for a long time, where a lot of tasks get pushed back and forth, because you simply know it's maybe not the right moment. And now she does the same thing every day: she sits down and first looks: okay, I don't actually need to call this one today. Now I have something like 70 tasks, I won't manage them today anyway. I'll push this on again, because they just aren't priority tasks. And they can always wait, where you know yourself: okay, wait a moment, if I call here today, I won't even get an objection. I'll get nothing at all, I might not even get through. I'd better move on and put it on another date. But the good thing is: if you know, okay, today I have maybe 20 calls here that I really want to make, and if I get through there, then I'm ready for whatever he says. And you can actually picture that very quickly in the little preparation.
15:13Why should you be prepared for the worst?
15:13Dominka: Would you say: be braced or prepared for the worst?
15:18Franjo: Yes, true. I completely agree, because an attitude like that usually saves your head. That's the technique. If you prepare for the worst: a contact who doesn't like salespeople to begin with, has no time, has to do 100 other things at the same time. Now you get on the line, and he thinks: yes, another salesperson with the same thing, I can't take this anymore. That's already the worst that can happen, if he also says: please don't call anymore. But that doesn't happen often, that happens maybe once in 1,200 calls, give or take. So I think: then only the best can happen. So always prepare well mentally for conversations with contacts.
16:10Why shouldn't you bury an objection you botched?
16:10Dominka: You know what else I think is a good attitude with objections? You have to say it quite openly: everyone has had an objection they couldn't handle, where after the call they just felt stupid and thought: oh, I'd rather forget that than ever repeat it. But I think it's a much better attitude not to forget it. That moment where you maybe feel a bit ashamed or think: oh, I really didn't do that well, not to push it away. I think the best salespeople really learn from situations like that and can hold on to them. That's why I'd like to pass on self-reflection: writing down situations you didn't like, or just interpreting them differently for yourself. Really not seeing it as a defeat, but always as an opportunity to do better next time.
17:14Franjo: It can all be a win if you look at it that way. Even the worst phone call can give you incredibly good feedback for yourself. For example, if you ask yourself the questions: what went wrong? What can I do better in this conversation? Which questions could I answer, which ones couldn't I answer? Why couldn't I answer these questions? Do I need more preparation? Do I need to talk to my contact? Do I need to talk to the other partners, to my PM? Or was today just a bad day? Was the coffee too sweet or was the gym session too short? You can really ask yourself good questions there and see what you can do better next time, so for the next workday, to be the best possible salesperson, of course.
18:02Talking it through: the call where Franjo was called pushy
18:02Dominka: The best version of yourself. Another technique that I find really good: always talking to someone about it when something bad has just happened, when you've totally embarrassed yourself or felt totally stupid because the person on the other end wasn't in a good mood at all. Is something coming up? Something's coming up.
18:24Franjo: I just had a situation like that, where I'd been trying to reach a contact for a really long time. After five times I finally reached him, and then came the worst possible attitude: “You're so pushy. We were actually considering you, but not anymore. In my eyes you've done the worst thing possible. Please don't contact us again.”
18:51Dominka: Really? That bad?
18:53Franjo: Yes, that bad. But I noted the whole thing down. I went through the pipeline and thought: I called once a week. Why am I suddenly so pushy? I thought: okay, fine. Three weeks later we got an inquiry from them. How silly, right? At first I was really shocked. I thought: what did I do wrong as a salesperson? Was I really too aggressive in that moment? And obviously my assertiveness paid off in that moment, the aggressiveness too, although in my eyes it doesn't exist, only in the contact's eyes. But yes, it was a really funny situation, which of course I also talked through with my colleagues. They looked at me and asked: is everything okay? No, it's not okay. I need a coffee now, I need some peace first. I have to pull myself together mentally, because conversations like that really hit a person hard. And that's where you actually show what you're made of. Some just shake it off without any problems and move on, and hats off to that. But then a bit of reflection is missing, so that you know: okay, what can I do better in the next conversation? And for some it throws them so deep into the dark that they don't want to call anymore that day.
20:26Dominka's reality check: “You're just calling into the void here”
20:26Dominka: I still remember: a few years ago, in my first project, where I absolutely loved doing the acquisition for that company. I always had really nice results too. And then after a while you think: wow, I'm really good. I'm doing this really well. Then I call a company, get through to the contact on the first call, get nicely past the switchboard, everything fits, great, everything wonderful. I present what we have to offer, it was about marketing and e-commerce. And then he hits me with the sentence: “Well, you're just calling into the void here. You haven't really done any research. If you had done some research, you'd know exactly what we do in marketing, and you wouldn't come to me with a question like that. I've rarely heard such poor preparation.” I stood there and thought: wow, he took me apart. He took me apart completely with one stupid sentence, and I thought: your stupid website doesn't say any more than what I could read from it.
21:50Dominka: But actually I hadn't prepared extremely well for that call. I just went in cold: “Yes, hello, here I am, I have this and that. What do you do in marketing?” – “If you had prepared better, you'd also have known what we do in marketing.” Then I thought: oh shit, I'm never going to put up with something like that again. So something like that must never happen to me again, because in my eyes I'd done really top work so far. And it wasn't my first week of making calls. It was maybe already the 40th week or something like that. I thought: okay. Not good. Not good. Then you become a bit more down to earth again and think: ah, okay, you need that. I just have to think a bit more about what I say on the phone when I talk to someone, so that I also have something ready quickly.
22:55Dominka: Maybe he was just in a really bad mood. On another day he maybe wouldn't have been so …
Franjo: … aggressive.
23:01Dominka: But he actually helped me a lot to sometimes go one step further.
23:09Franjo: Getting a reality check like that is good, from day to day, from situation to situation. But to be honest: that was a bit too much.
23:22Dominka: A bit, yes.
23:28Franjo: You can say that in other ways too. But did he help you get better?
23:39What to do when a client asks: “Did you come in here completely unprepared?”
23:39Dominka: I think so. It happened to me again a year ago, in a meeting, to me and Valentina. I think we've already talked about it in a podcast. He came in, and we asked a really simple question: “What do you actually do in sales? Would you like to introduce yourself again?” He reacted so rudely, straight away like: “Well, what is this now? Did you come in here completely unprepared?” I was like: What? We parted ways very quickly. We didn't even start our pitch, because I thought: dear friend, I asked you a really simple question here, because I want to know how your sales is set up. I can't find that out anywhere except from your own mouth. If you don't feel like talking about it now, then we're not a match. That's okay too. Hey, have a nice day, goodbye forever.
24:41Franjo: Find another sales team for that. No, I totally understand. But as I said: you don't have to work with people like that. When someone comes with answers like that, with an attitude like: “Have you prepared?” Of course I've prepared. Of course I know the topic, of course I know the basics. I can't know everything, but it's not my job to know everything. That's actually a nice thing you learn through sales: You don't have to know everything, you don't have to be prepared for every situation either, but you have to be confident enough to get through even the worst situation.
25:23How do beginners prepare for objections?
25:23Dominka: Yes. And you learn that over the years. And I think what's also really good, if you really don't have much experience, want to go into a phone call and don't know how to handle an objection or what should technically be in place, because you haven't listened to our podcast yet, and now of course you're listening: you're really allowed to help yourself online with every possible means. Just ask an AI: “Hey, what do I do if he says this and that?” Don't take it over one to one, but be prepared for it: oh, okay, there are people out there who've done this before me, they had these problems too. Don't always see everything as a defeat, just see everything as a chance to do something better. I think that's the be-all and end-all of objection handling. Hey, an objection is just a chance. To hang up or to keep going.
26:31Franjo: Exactly. And the question is whether you want to use that chance, or even better: whether you're willing to experience and acquire the knowledge to be able to use that chance.
26:47How much life and feeling belongs in a cold call?
26:47Dominka: The calls I get from other people now and then: I'm actually always open to talking to someone when they cold-call me, because first and foremost I want to hear: how does he do it?
Franjo: Exactly, exactly.
27:02Dominka: Second, it's also exciting for me to know how I could maybe help him a bit with my knowledge … I have a bit of a helper syndrome, you know? When I notice it's not going so well, I like to step in and say: hey, look.
27:27Franjo: Wait a moment, you're really telling me: someone calls you, he wants to sell you something, and then you say: try doing the pitch differently?
27:36Dominka: I've done that a few times. When I didn't like how they were doing it, I told them: “Hey, a tip on the side: what you're selling here really doesn't interest me, that's not the point. But the way you're doing it really isn't the best way. Just try putting a bit of life into it.”
27:57Franjo: Ironically, I've done that once too.
28:00Dominka: I think it's actually quite nice to do that, isn't it? It's really quite lovely.
28:03Franjo: Yes, it's lovely, but the question is why you're doing it. If you really want to help the other person, it's lovely, wonderful, and that's how you should do it. Me, for example, I just wanted to annoy the other person.
28:16Dominka: Ah, okay. I never want that. I only want that with my colleagues. I like annoying them.
28:23Franjo: Oh, thank you. For example, someone called me like that and wanted to sell me something, and I tell him: “You know what? I'll buy it from you, but convince me. Be full of life, really show me that you want to sell this to me and that I need it in my life, then I'll buy it.” – “What do you mean?” – “I just told you, I'll buy it, a hundred percent, but be fired up about it. Really. Show me that you know it. Show me that I need it in my life, and I'll buy it from you a hundred percent.” And then he hung up.
28:56Dominka: Very important technique: bring the feeling along too. Just bring the feeling in.
Franjo: Exactly. And then he hung up.
29:02Dominka: Well, he didn't want to sell. That's fine too. Did you buy it anyway?
29:08Franjo: I didn't, no. But I completely agree with you there: bringing emotions into the whole thing too. That always helps, but you learn that too. If you didn't do it in the first or fifth conversation, you simply learn over time that you also have to show humanity in conversations. Smiling too.
Dominka: Being happy too.
Franjo: Being happy.
29:31Dominka: Not too happy, that annoys some people too.
29:34Franjo: Yes, but cheerful. So that you say: yes, I've got a smile on my face. I also understand if you haven't had a good day. I don't want to be pushy now, I'm just asking. Those are really things you can learn over time as a salesperson. And you don't have to be born for it either. Nobody is born for sales. But anyone can learn it if they invest the time, the energy.
30:07Why does the opener “this is a cold call” grate?
30:07Dominka: It's become a trend again to come in with the opener: “This is a cold call” and so on.
Franjo: I've seen that.
Dominka: It annoys me so much.
30:16Franjo: But there's a guy on Instagram who packages it so nicely, like a joke.
30:24Dominka: Yes, but that's funny because he does it as a joke. But actually people mostly do it in such a cringe way. I think it's such a cringe thing, you could already see that on YouTube 15 years ago, and now people are doing it again. It happened to me recently too, someone called. He has a really great product, it almost sells itself. And then he comes with this: “This is a cold call.” I was like: no, you didn't just pull that. I was like: yeah, okay, give it to me. And then the pitch wasn't bad. He asked me something interesting that I didn't have a proper answer to. And that made it exciting for me, I do think that's good. But I'd avoid the opener, I don't like it at all. It's so worn out for me.
31:17Franjo: Yes, but you also have to know how to package the whole thing. As I said, the guy who does it does it like this: “If I told you this was a cold call, would you throw your phone against the wall right now?”
31:31Dominka: “Yes, I would. I'm not even on my phone. But if I had a phone and you hadn't called me on my headphones right now, I'd hurl it against the wall.”
31:46Franjo: “Oh, I see, how hard, and against which wall?”
Dominka: “A concrete wall.”
31:51Franjo: And that's where the conversation starts.
31:54Dominka: Never to be heard from again. Bam! (auf Nimmerwiederhören: goodbye forever)
Franjo: Bam.
31:59Dominka: No, no, of course not. I think with me it's just that I always give people a chance when someone calls, because I actually don't want to bring bad energy into your calls if I didn't let a cold call run to the end.
32:20Franjo: Ah, that's nice of you.
32:21Dominka: Yes, that's really, really sweet, I'd say. That's just my lovely way: giving others a chance to mess up the call. Or not.
32:32Franjo: Depends. Some mess it up. But that's where experience comes in again: if you've only made a few calls, the chance is high that you'll mess it up.
32:43Top or Flop 1: Start with the pitch, without asking questions?
32:43Dominka: I've prepared a little game, about technique in sales. And the game is called …
Franjo: Ah, I thought it was called … No, sorry.
33:00Dominka: Sorry. So, the game is called Top or Flop. It's nothing newly invented. I have sales techniques that you should rate as top or flop, maybe with a short reason. Four of them.
Franjo: Sure.
33:25Dominka: Number one: starting cold calling straight away with a pitch, without asking questions.
33:32Franjo: Flop. If you start with the whole pitch, you're giving a monologue, and it should become a dialogue where you find out what the other person needs. That's why two, three sentences about the whole why and what for, and then the question of whether that's interesting.
33:56Dominka: A lot of people do that: they rattle it off quickly because they're just afraid of hearing an objection.
34:03Franjo: But better an objection right away. And then work through the whole thing nicely, like a human being.
34:08Dominka: I think so too. Flop.
34:10Top or Flop 2: Ignore objections and keep going?
34:10Dominka: Let's go straight to the second one: simply ignoring objections and quickly moving on to the next topic.
34:17Franjo: I mean, after five, after six …
Dominka: “We don't have any money.” – “You know what? It doesn't cost anything at all. Let's keep talking.”
34:26Franjo: This is now the sixth episode on objection handling, isn't it?
Dominka: No idea.
34:32Franjo: I think so. After six episodes of objection handling, I think we've really covered the point that you have to handle objections. So: flop.
34:38Dominka: But imagine, really like this: “Not interested.” And you just keep going.
34:47Franjo: The worst thing about it is: with some people it would actually work.
34:53Dominka: The law of large numbers. Calls like that every month, where you just call your way through, and …
35:01Franjo: … one of them tells you: “Thank you for being so persistent and pushy”, and he buys it. So: in theory yes, in practice please don't.
35:13Dominka: Chances very low.
Franjo: Very, very low. Please don't.
35:18Top or Flop 3: Send one follow-up and wait?
35:18Dominka: Sending a follow-up once and then waiting to see whether the lead comes back. Flop. So many people do that.
Franjo: Flop.
35:25Dominka: What annoys me most: when we really book a lead, set up a meeting. For us that actually means: we listened, we asked questions, he's pre-qualified, he's well qualified. He'll be a warm to hot lead. He has time to listen to the whole thing. He sits down, he listens to the whole thing. And after the pitch that our partner then gives, there's no follow-up work. Or a follow-up email comes, and you wait for him to get in touch himself.
36:04Franjo: That doesn't work. You have to be active in the sales process, especially with things like that, especially when it's a hot lead. So: flop.
36:16Dominka: Yes, especially with email marketing it's often like that, they swear by it: “Yes, yes, yes, open rates, open rates” and so on, and you get warm leads and so on. I find this topic so hard. I've actually never got into doing mailing, cold mailing and so on. But I just can't believe there's a conversion rate that would be satisfactory.
36:46Franjo: No, if anything, a very, very, very low one. And if that suits people, okay. If they're happy with such a low level, who are we to question it?
37:05Top or Flop 4: Tell the lead everything at once?
37:05Dominka: Okay. Telling a lead everything your product, your service or you as a service provider can do. Showing him the full functionality.
37:22Franjo: Yes, but not all at once. So during the conversation, depending on what he says, what he argues, then name the feature. Because if, as I said, you tell the whole thing all at once, the other person remembers few things, and that's not the point either. I'd say: what's between top and flop? Klop. (a made-up word between top and flop)
Dominka: Klop?
Franjo: It's a klop.
37:48Dominka: I'd call it a flop again too, because I think: it's good to mention the possibilities so the other person knows what … Teasing a bit is okay, but just everything in one phone call?
38:00Franjo: No, that really makes no sense, that doesn't work. As I said, it really has to be a dialogue, so the other person understands: okay, I'm listening, I can argue with you, I can show you why the service, the product is good and why you would need it. That's okay. But everything at once isn't really the best from a technical point of view either, because the other person can't remember it if you blast the whole thing out like a machine.
38:30What is the cold call for, and what is the pitch for?
38:30Dominka: I also think: the cold call in particular should of course always serve to spark interest, to ask about the interest and above all to really pre-qualify the person with the interest, or the one who judges the interest, well. And not to try to establish yourself as a star and know-it-all, because that's actually meant for the pitch later. We don't sell toothbrushes that are really easy to explain, you want it or you don't, but really complex products or services.
39:05Dominka: I also wasn't a fan when in the past colleagues, because they have a lot of background knowledge about what we do, explained so much in the first call that the prospects no longer wanted a meeting at all, but just wanted an offer straight away. And that never turned out to be a good collaboration, or rather it never came to a collaboration later. And the one time it did come to a collaboration, with something I actually see as a complex simple topic, okay, a paradox, which cold calling also is, but nicely structured at our place, I'd say, they never really grasped the structure. Because it was certainly explained very well on the phone, but it simply didn't get the depth that's important. And then something was just agreed in a hurry and turned into a project. Not good.
40:17Franjo: I agree.
Dominka: That's what a lot of people want, actually.
40:19Franjo: But it doesn't make sense: if you want a partnership, you also want the partnership to be long-term.
40:24Why is an objection the best pre-qualification?
40:24Dominka: That's why another word of encouragement for everyone who gets objections: Objection equals great chance. If you don't get an objection, you can't pre-qualify the person well either. Or if he now says: “Hey, great, that's wonderful. Can you do this and that? Can you do that and that?” – “Yes, maybe, actually yes. Let's talk to the expert.” That's something where you can say: hey, the interest is there. You understand something about the topic, and you can also ask about the topic again nicely in a structured way. Things that really interest you, with a person who knows much more than I do or has the same knowledge, but who will really show it to you again calmly. Because they're always in a hurry on the phone. But in the meeting you've taken the time to go through the whole thing with another person. That's why you have meetings. Then you have time, then you're also mentally prepared to listen to the topic now. And I, my colleague or whoever is going to hold this meeting has taken the time especially for you, and not for a pipeline full of prospects who need to be called. That's why: Objections are always welcome.
41:40How do you use the short time on the phone?
41:40Dominka: Objection equals good pre-qualification. And maybe technically that's also what you have to keep in mind: knowing what you can say. Having rituals for preparation, for focus and distraction. Being well prepared for the person you want to talk to. But then also knowing: you have to use the time you're getting from the person now to your advantage, because it's limited, because you're in a hurry. He's in a hurry. Nobody can notice that you're in a hurry, though. But that's exactly the best moment to see: okay, fine, when it comes to the meeting, then we'll both take our time. And that's actually maybe another good way of handling objections: “Hey, maybe we're in a hurry. But let's take the time for the important topic at another point.”
42:36Franjo: True. Perfect. That's also a wonderful thing you can use. Of course you learn that over time too. When you then say: “Okay, I can see you don't have time right now. We're happy to set up a call for next week so we can talk it through in peace.” That really gives you ways to show that you're an experienced BDR.
43:02Are good talkers automatically good BDRs?
43:02Franjo: To jump back to the original topic, I'd say: yes, there are people who talk a lot, there are people who talk beautifully, there are people who can tell incredible stories. But that doesn't automatically mean such people are good BDRs. Precisely the things where you have to ask good questions, where you have to organise yourself well, where you also have to show empathy towards the other person: those are things you can really learn through the whole sales process, through many calls. So: A good BDR is a BDR who has invested a lot of time in calls and in themselves. That's also a technique you should learn.
43:43Dominka: Not always being in a hurry. Really taking the time to reflect on what you did well and what you did badly. Talk to your colleagues about it. Take your time on the phone, but take more time to prepare a good meeting, so that the person can then also take time for a pitch they'll listen to in the meeting. I've just thrown that together somehow.
44:14Franjo: Works. Do you have any more questions for me?
Dominka: No.
44:19Franjo: I don't have any questions either.
Dominka: That's it, right?
Franjo: That's it, yes.
44:22Wrap-up: why you should simply give sales a try
44:22Dominka: Good. I think the topic didn't turn out to be a flop.
44:28Franjo: No, the topic is a great topic, so we can show people who haven't dared to take on a sales job so far that they can give themselves a chance. And of course I'm keeping my fingers crossed for everyone who has a bit of self-doubt: Just give it a try. The worst thing that can happen is that the other person says: “Not interested.” And then you're still alive.
44:54Dominka: Exactly. Conclusion: objections are …
Franjo: … great things.
44:59Dominka: Great thing. A core part of a good cold call.
45:06Franjo: And a chance to make the best of it.
45:11Dominka: That was another episode of Dialing Out, the OB2B Podcast, with Franjo, our star BDR, who just shoots down every objection. Everything flawless with him. (einwandfrei: flawless, literally "objection-free")
Franjo: Full of objections, then flawless. (wordplay: einwandvoll, danach einwandfrei)
45:28Dominka: Exactly. You can find us on LinkedIn.
Franjo: On YouTube.
Dominka: On Spotify.
45:39Franjo: On Instagram, on TikTok. Write in the comments if you have questions or want to know something, or just write in the chat or give us a call.
45:57Dominka: My phone number is on the website too. Feel free to connect on LinkedIn, I'll say it once more, on our channels. We'll be very pleased when we see a new subscription from you. Otherwise: thank you very much for listening. See you next week.
46:20Franjo: Until then.
46:22Dominka: Bye. Thanks, Franjo.
Franjo: Anytime.
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