B2B First Meeting: Sharpen ICP, Read Signals – How to Win in the Room

1:45Dominka: Today's topic: the ideal customer and how you convince them of yourself in a meeting, or rather of the product you're marketing, or of the service. Or, every now and then, how you don't.

Valentina: True, we know that one too.

2:04Dominka: Yes, unfortunately that happens, but that's okay too. We actually take our time right at the start, when we pre-qualify our leads and build an ideal customer profile. We build lists and focus on who we'd like to work with. The pool is pretty big. You can already learn a lot in the first call, in the cold call, in the follow-up, by getting to know each other and warming up the lead. But we believe that you can only really close a deal properly in an on-site meeting, or in an online meeting, the way we do it ourselves. And we put a lot of weight on that. That's one of your jobs, among other things.

2:55Dominka: How long have you been doing this now?

Valentina: Oh God. A year and a half.

3:01Dominka: When you look back now: has anything changed in the meantime?

3:11Valentina: Do you mean in my attitude or with the customers?

Dominka: Both. Just how you feel about it now.

3:17Valentina: Well, from my side: of course I feel much more comfortable and at ease now after a year and a half, because I've been doing it a bit longer. I already have a feel for the processes and for the people I talk to, what they might be like, what they'd have to tell. I also know the projects we've done much better now, and I can take all of that information with me into the meeting. And as for the people we talk to, our potential customers: I think after a year and a half I have a better ear for the things they say in the meeting, and I can go into the story much better than at the start. But that's only natural over time, I think.

4:01Dominka: I think that's also a very important learning, that after a while you know better who the ideal customer actually is. Maybe you don't want everyone you've invited to a meeting and are then sitting with in the meeting. You can already say to yourself: okay, maybe this one isn't our favourite customer after all. As a company they might fit us quite well. But a call like that, a meeting like that, is also there to really get to know each other and to say: do they actually fit us at all? If they absolutely want to work with us, sure, okay, we can do that. But sometimes you already sense: uh, this could get difficult. Every now and then you might have trouble with the communication.

5:00Valentina: Yes, you probably have a better feel for things like that than I do, because you went through these stories at the beginning too. I'm still learning these little details. I can't judge everything as well as you can yet. But with some people I do notice: okay, this could be a, well, not a problematic, but a more difficult project than the other one. I'm slowly getting a feel for it, but I still need a bit of time for things like that. I think you already get these feelings in the first conversations with the contact person.

5:35Valentina: Something I just remembered: I don't know if you remember the guy who came into the meeting, where we thought: okay, this is our contact person. We wanted him to introduce himself and the company. And then he simply left the meeting, because he said: "Nah, what kind of questions are these? I don't want to answer that." And he was just gone. And I thought: we asked you that just to get a better feeling for what you bring and what your company does. We'd looked at the website, but we simply wanted to get a better feeling for you. And then you get a reaction like that. Okay, then we know: he's not for us at all.

6:11Dominka: Yes, I actually remember it, quite well in fact. That really was one of those meetings where I thought: that was really, totally stupid of you. But the good thing that came out of it: I turned it to my advantage. I wrote a post about it straight away, and it went down really well. I think not just because I was badmouthing someone, but because a lot of people who do the same thing as the two of us recognised themselves in it: every now and then there are simply people who don't understand at all what it's about and then come across very, very arrogantly in the conversation. He's probably actually a perfectly okay person, but …

7:00Valentina: On that day?

Dominka: On that day he really was an a-hole.

Valentina: Yes, yes.

7:10Dominka: Oh yes, the thing I always find exciting: when someone comes into the conversation and you have the feeling they're coming in with one attitude but then leave with a different one. And that's actually the goal. With people who aren't sure yet whether they want to work with us, we want to at least see them out of the meeting with a good feeling, or say goodbye to them that way. Conversations like that are always really valuable to me too, even if nothing comes of it, when you've had a really good exchange. Sometimes I even like that much more on the phone than in a meeting. Because in a meeting you notice very quickly whether you're a fit for each other or not. But when it takes a bit longer on the phone, I find it nice when the contact is still there. Where you know nothing may ever come of it, but it's still good to keep nurturing it.

8:11Valentina: Yes, I recently had a phone call like that too, it was a company from the logistics industry. And at the start the guy was like: "Yes, no, we're not interested." And then I got into the conversation with him a bit more deeply, because I told him: "Yes, but we've had customers like you before. We've had projects like that. I worked on a project like that. I know the industry, I know the people. I know they're more conservative." You try, through these personal experiences and simply through being a human being with another human being on the other side, to get deeper into the topic. And then simply give him the feeling: okay, I'm listening to you, I understand. Maybe it doesn't fit right now, but let me just send you an email, and then in six months, in a year, who knows when, we can simply talk again and see where we are and whether it fits better then.

8:57Dominka: And that's actually how we do it, how it's also valuable. And not something like: "Hey, let's do tomorrow …"

9:03Dominka: I've got a really good example. I got a cold call myself, last week, I think. He pitched in a way that you noticed: this is a cold call. I was like: oh no, it's so stupid to come in with a pitch like that. But I let him finish, and he actually had an okay topic for me. And then I agreed. Yes, I agreed, but listen to what happened next. And this is really important once more, before we get to the topic, straight into the call, into the meeting.

9:41Dominka: He set up a meeting for me and a managing director of their company, I think it was a CEO. And I said: if it doesn't work out this week, then I won't feel like it anymore. If it works out now, good, I'm in the topic right now. If not, I'll probably find something else myself anyway.

10:06Dominka: And I said: from tomorrow or the day after, I could do something. And he set the meeting for the same day. I was like: what's that supposed to be? I can't do today at all. He just shoves a meeting into my calendar, then he messages me on WhatsApp, then he messages me on LinkedIn, and then I get another email with a date that doesn't suit me at all. I don't reply to him on WhatsApp at all, because I thought, I'm not doing that. On LinkedIn I then say: "Hey, you set the wrong time for me. I can't do today at all." And his answer …

10:47Valentina: Oh my God.

Dominka: That's something that just must not happen.

Valentina: Nope.

Dominka: I think that's exactly what we are not.

10:55Valentina: Nope, that was pushy. I do find that a bit much.

11:00Dominka: He pushed it in, and I think he didn't care at all whether I rebooked or not. I then also messaged the CEO and said: "Hey, today's meeting doesn't work for me at all." No answer either. So you've got a person who apparently makes a lot of push calls for you. We never even got to the meeting, because in my opinion you didn't do your job well at all.

11:23Dominka: And I'm not someone who doesn't forgive. If he had said: "Oh sorry, I misread that, I apologise, can I book something for tomorrow?", then I would have said: "Yes, sure, tomorrow works." That's the first step you should get right, isn't it?

11:40Dominka: No matter how many leads you have, whether you have 20 leads a day or one lead a day or a month. With us it's more that we work really carefully on setting qualified meetings. For me that was something where you simply get pushed into it, and we don't do that. And I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who sells a serious product or a serious service with which you really want to build trust. That's what most of our customers want too: to have someone who first of all helps to present the company well and to set a meeting where you know: I'm going to talk to someone who actually only needs enough from me to understand that they can trust us as a company and should continue with us.

12:28Valentina: Yes, what they're most afraid of, I think, is this scorched earth: that we go in and just blast through the phone calls and are pushy, and that the company gets a bad reputation from our work. And if you yourself, in that first call, when I call and try to set a meeting, come across the way we normally do, then they also get a feeling for how we work. Then they know: okay, they won't be too pushy, they'll call when I told them to call. We set the meeting, then I also get an invitation for it, and then we stick to that meeting. Those are all things that are professional, and that's how you have to communicate with people.

13:16Dominka: I don't know if you remember that call where we were both in it together. The meeting with a lady who was totally irritated at the start, because I asked her what exactly they do, simply to see what their sales process looks like. She was totally irritated by me. Later the meeting actually developed quite well.

13:47Valentina: She said so herself at the end.

13:49Dominka: She said so herself. But nothing came of it anyway. But those are also the kind of meetings where you think you're actually doing something wrong. You manage, in the same meeting, to turn the whole thing around again, to really engage with the person, to understand what they do, and to explain to them: hey, we do it like this and like this. And if you like it, great. If you don't like it, that's fine too.

14:14Dominka: Something else I feel strongly about: if you've already been in the meeting and the people have made an effort, contacted you afterwards, sent you another email or called again and set another meeting, and then they really don't show up or keep rescheduling, then I think that's really something where you can't carry the blame yourself anymore. Maybe really important for people to know: you have to distance yourself from that. It's not because you pitched badly or said something wrong. It really is down to them. That they don't find it urgent right now, that they maybe have another topic, or are simply rude.

15:00Valentina: Yes, otherwise they'd be in the meeting. We had a case like that too, where the lady rescheduled the meeting five or six times, I think. And then I didn't feel like working on companies like that anymore either, and I don't want to work with them anymore. Because if she doesn't show up to this meeting, she won't show up to the setup call either, and working with her will be problematic too. In my opinion something like that isn't worth it. You have to set a boundary for yourself and say: this is where I stop. I don't want to work with this lady, and that's okay too.

15:36Dominka: Something I always find really positive too, and it really happens very often after a year or after a while: they simply get in touch again. They need you now. Maybe they didn't need you back then, you're in a long process, and then all of a sudden they come to you themselves. Of course you have to be visible. We're visible on LinkedIn and so on too, but very often they simply remember. Even if they got a reply from you once and didn't answer it: at some point, when it's really relevant and you've done your work carefully, they come back.

16:15Dominka: If they say: "Hey, don't contact us anymore, we'll get in touch", then yes, okay, all good, I respect that. If they say: "We'll get back to you in six months", and then didn't, then of course you can get in touch again. You should do that too, don't forget.

16:34Dominka: I recently called someone I hadn't spoken to on the phone for two years. He remembered me. He still has no need, but he was really happy that I called. And I think that's quite nice. I had a nice conversation, and then I thought: oh yes, here it comes again: "Sure, great, if we do that, then definitely with you. But right now we're really well set up. I'm doing it alone at the moment, it works quite well." And I was like: yes, that's cool too. The main thing is that someone's doing it.

16:59Valentina: Yes, I think that's cool too.

17:02Dominka: Very important for today, for the discussion, or for what we want to give people to take away: when you have a call for the first time, what does your first attitude have to be when you go in? You've already pre-qualified, in the sense that you know who's coming, what the company does, what the sales process looks like. That's our topic, after all. And you already bring a bit of a sentiment with you. You know what the person's attitude was on the phone, whether it's someone who's very present or rather someone who comes across a bit shyer.

17:46Valentina: Yes, well, of course you always look at what was last discussed with the contact person. Like you said, you then also get a feeling for how the conversation went with whoever set the meeting. Of course you also look at the website a bit, LinkedIn, what they do, whether he or she is perhaps active. And something we also really like to do as preparation: we look at what customers we've had so far, so which partners from which industry, so that we go into the meeting with that knowledge and can tell them, if they ask: with this customer we dealt with this and that, and we have this kind of experience from this industry. Those are things that always go down well. You can really score points there. Those are the little preparation steps we also take.

18:37Valentina: But actually you only learn a lot in that first meeting, when you sit down with the person and see them for the first time. I love it when they turn their camera on too. You see what the person looks like. You see a smile, you see, I don't know, a frown, whatever. You get a feeling for how the conversation is going because you get a reaction from the other person. And then come our first questions, which are super important in that meeting, so that we get a better picture of how they do the whole thing.

19:09Valentina: What I always find interesting, which you always ask at the start: what their sales processes look like. I ask that in my meetings too. But in that first meeting, when the two of us sit together, you get a much deeper feeling and picture of how they do it. And then they go a bit further into the topic and say: "We've already done this with an agency, and it didn't go so well", or "We do it all ourselves, and it's too much for us", or "We don't know how to go about it, because we don't have a salesperson, only the CEOs make calls." You pick up stories like that, and I always find that super interesting.

19:52Dominka: I also think an important thing for the success of a meeting is that you really try to go in completely relaxed. And if you notice that the other side is maybe a bit irritated right now: you mustn't take that on. You should try to somehow smooth it over, or pick up on it: hey, what's bothering you right now? Or do you have a question, is something unclear? I think that always helps, it's where they open up themselves. And you mustn't be afraid to ask them a question that could potentially get you an unpleasant answer. Then that's just how it is. And very often it's actually like this: if they answer with something that maybe isn't directly positive, and you can counter it with a positive answer, then you've made it. If not, then at that point you can also say: hey, this isn't for us. We're not right for you. And that's okay too.

20:54Dominka: And I always thought this was good, no matter what you want to sell, no matter what you pitch or present: simply being honest. Not raising false hopes. You only create problems for yourself with that anyway.

21:09Valentina: Yes, I think that's mega important too. They notice that, too. If you tell them something where you have no idea what you're even talking about, they notice that you're just talking their ears off and firing out numbers without any feeling for what exactly they want to hear. If I started telling stories in a meeting about, for example, experience from this or that industry, and I don't know anything about it, people would notice that too. You have to be honest and say: yes okay, we have experience from this industry, maybe not from yours, but that one was similar, for example, and that's where we were able to score this and that way. If you're honest with the contact people, I think they appreciate that too. I think that's mega important too.

21:55Dominka: Something I also think is good: when we occasionally get an inquiry from an industry we actually don't have much to do with, then I think it's absolutely fine if we say: we actually don't have experience from exactly this industry. We can imagine quite well that we can build the sales process well here, because we know where we can source the data. And we know you can show us what's important for your company in the sales process, and then we can build on that. And it's always a super win situation for us when we really get a new industry.

Valentina: Yes, exactly.

Dominka: When it comes in as an inquiry. We very rarely approach industries where we can't say that ourselves. There we can say for sure how we can do it. There you can maybe expect this and that. But you can expect that we already know how to approach them, that we already know how they tick. And that's really very good.

22:56Dominka: For everyone, I think, that's actually the main tip: when you approach your customers, you really have to know who the perfect customer is for you. It's not always just one, but you learn from these conversations where you can still get in later.

23:16Dominka: We recently had a meeting like that, it was the packaging industry. You see it right away with the customers sitting in the meeting: if you say a bit about the experience you've already gathered in the same industry, or ask a question, then they think: oh yes, okay, they already know how it all works. They already know what's going on in this industry. Then you've already scored.

23:50Valentina: Yes, and he was also really open to the conversation with us, because we talked a bit about having experience from this industry, and showed things. You can then also feel the energy he brings for his own products and services. It's always such a nice feeling when you already get a feel in the first meeting for how the company breathes and everything they have to offer, and when there's plenty of optimism and energy behind it. I think we were able to bring that about a bit too, precisely because we bring experience from this industry and know the industry.

24:26Valentina: But even if we don't have experience, then, as you already said, we simply get a new industry. And what we can always offer: we're the sales experts here. We're the ones who can do this part. Maybe we're not experts in the packaging industry, although slowly we are by now. But we are sales experts. You probably have experts who are very good at IT, who are very good at, I don't know, logistics, the construction industry, whatever. But we do the part that you might not be so good at. And that's how we can score a bit, I think, when we don't have the experience.

25:04Dominka: Absolutely. And that's reflected in every product. If you believe that it's something that works, if you know your service is needed there, and you really stand behind it with enthusiasm, with a vision where you know we'll manage it, then it's also worth fighting for it and taking something further. No matter whether they're sceptical or not: it's simply worth it so that you're at peace with yourself. I really did everything to present my company, my product, our service the way I feel about it. And I think nobody can run a meeting like that if they don't really believe themselves: we're good. We're better than the rest. We're the best for you. And then going in with that confidence. Or also with the confidence: we're not a fit.

26:06Valentina: Also okay.

26:07Dominka: Maybe we're not what you need. Maybe we're good, but not for you. That's okay too.

26:13Valentina: Yes, I really like that as an attitude too, that we don't push things just to get any customer at any price, but that it's actually thought through with us. That we approach the companies and the people who really fit us, where we feel comfortable and where we see that it makes sense for both sides and that both sides will win from it.

26:39Dominka: Okay, we've now talked about what it's like before the meeting, how we prepare for it, and what you should do in the meeting: above all simply be relaxed and have the attitude as if this is really just a nice conversation where we're trying to get to know each other. And that's what it usually is, that's what it's usually meant to be. They're all people sitting across from you. And people buy from people. That's just how it is.

27:08Dominka: And if you try to say right in the first meeting: "Yes, we can give you a discount right away", I don't think that's good. Let them think about it first, whether it's worth it for them, whether they want it now, when they want it. If it really comes down to price, you can talk about it later. I think bringing up price straight away, a discount here, a discount there, on everything, isn't always ideal.

27:36Dominka: But the added value has to be clear. Like: this is what you get, we're happy to give you this. You could maybe get this on top, because you need it too, because it's much better for you, in our case, not to take only phone prospecting, but for us to also do a bit of LinkedIn prospecting for you. Or we build the lists for you. We do that in the implementation. We have project managers who lead it, and so on. Then they should understand the added value: that they're not getting just one thing, but several.

28:04Dominka: And maybe one more takeaway: you have to, in quotation marks, defend the price. By saying: this isn't just a price for, I don't know, the SaaS software we're offering you today, but really also for the people behind it. For the fact that you can always call us. For the fact that there's always a contact person in the background who's there for you and looks at what you're doing in this segment right now. Or maybe with some logistics companies: you have a contact person who then does it. It's not just the transport you get, it's not just the packaging you get, but really the whole service behind it. You have to be clear about that. And I think then the price isn't always the deciding factor later on.

28:52Valentina: Yes. We also tell the whole story in our meetings, and I think they really get the feeling that they're in good hands with us if they take us on as a partner. The price then comes at the end, and most of them say: okay, fair price. Because you've told a story with which they really see everything we have to offer. And it's not just a team, but really the communication behind every project. That's mega important. And like I said, I think most of them appreciate that. And I appreciate it in turn when they react to our price like that.

29:30Dominka: We've also had cases where they really came at us with price dumping. That's something that really irritates me. You notice with those who want to cut the price drastically: it wasn't such a small thing that they somehow wanted a discount. They really wanted proper price dumping. I'm always against that, because I think it's not only unfair to us, but also to the whole industry that works in this field. I think anyone who does this professionally should actually have a professional price behind it. And secondly you notice that they actually didn't really listen to everything they'd get with it. And then you think: well, the door is right there.

30:29Valentina: Bye.

30:30Dominka: Yes, well, that's okay too. Then you can also say: hey, all good. We'll try our luck elsewhere, and you'll find each other if they then really understand it. I really don't think it's fair when someone wants to grind the price down that drastically without having understood what it's even about.

30:54Dominka: But the meeting itself isn't the only place where you close the deal. Very rarely do they say right in the meeting: "Yes, yes, great."

31:04Valentina: We don't like that either. We want to play a bit longer too.

31:07Dominka: Exactly. So what's always important to do after the meeting? Not forget and really stay on it. What steps do you always take after the meeting?

31:18Valentina: After the meeting we put together an offer, if they want one, and that's usually the case. And we also send the presentation along, so that they have it for the others in the team and can show it. During the first meeting we of course also try to set a follow-up meeting, so that we sit down together again and can go through the offer we sent once more. Often questions come up where they think they didn't understand the offer well, which is completely fine. In this follow-up meeting you then try to answer those questions, so that they really understand the whole thing and are aware of what they're paying for here. And hopefully after this feedback call, that's what we call it, they're then ready for the project with us.

32:12Dominka: If you think about it now: where does the real selling happen for you? In the meeting or in the feedback call?

32:20Valentina: Well, I think we pitch the most important things in the first meeting already, but of course you close in the feedback call. Not every case is like that. Sometimes the feedback call is simply: "Yes, okay, we want to do the project with you." Great. But sometimes you have these deeper conversations in the feedback call, where you still need a bit of time and have to take a few steps so that they're ready to go into the partnership with you.

32:47Dominka: That's good, I like that too. I'd say that 99 percent of them decide for or against us in the meeting already. Or if they have several providers, then that's probably the criterion for them to see once more which of them fits best. And the feedback call is only there to see whether there's still some small decision we can take off their hands, because they still have another provider. But actually I think that in our case the job is already done in the first call. With our service. Elsewhere maybe not: if it's SaaS software or something like that, then you can maybe still do a lot afterwards, add more features or sharpen which of the existing features are good for them, and so on. But we don't build in features. We're a service.

33:51Dominka: Something once happened to me that really … An example: it was a call from an inquiry. They had also asked several other providers and were then in a call with me. It was actually a very pleasant conversation. But what I noticed right away in the call: they actually want very pushy sales and a lot of conversion. They keep saying: "Nah, doesn't matter, they don't have to be super qualified, the main thing is we have lots of meetings." And I think to myself: I know, if you got something like I did at the start of our conversation, that someone just shoves a meeting into my calendar, then I cancel, because it wasn't set properly at all. If you want that, we can of course do it, but I think it's total nonsense. And then I already knew: that's not what we do. That's not where we fit in.

34:57Dominka: But what then confirmed to me 100 percent in this call that they weren't for us was: "Yes, great, thanks for the presentation, that was a great meeting, but now you still have to do a bit of selling." In the sense that I push the price down and write to them again what quota we can achieve. I then said: "I've actually already done the selling so far. Me doing price dumping now or anything like that is probably out of the question. But I'm happy to give you a few numbers." And I knew I'd lost the deal. But on the other hand I thought: I can't, in quotation marks, do selling now, cut the price straight away and promise something they might not be able to keep. Then I'd have done the selling, but you wouldn't get what you actually wanted at all. And of course they also wanted commission, you know?

35:52Valentina: Everything we're not. Yeah, great.

35:55Dominka: Yes, that's one way to do sales. I'm not against it either, if it fits somewhere. Unfortunately not with us. And I think then we'd end up in a situation where we promise a lot and can't deliver anything.

36:14Dominka: Finally, maybe one more thing on all of this: what's the most important thing to pay attention to in a meeting? Oh, looking good. Having your hair combed, wearing make-up. But it really is important too, I think. We've talked about that internally here too. We all have great cameras, so that we're really in focus and the light is right. You really shouldn't forget things like that.

36:44Valentina: Yes, I think that's important too.

36:47Dominka: That should actually always be the case. But apart from what you see: with us I think what you get to see is actually quite good, and how the whole thing is set up, and I don't just mean the two of us, but how the whole thing is set up technically. Without wanting to sound conceited. But content-wise: what would you say is important to go through with the ideal customer again, and how do I find out whether they're really ideal?

37:24Valentina: I think what matters: first, what kind of questions they ask. Then I get a feeling for how they breathe and where they stand on a topic like this. If they don't ask any questions, then I think: okay, maybe they weren't really right for us. Then, what kind of energy they bring into the meeting. That also gives you a feeling for which direction the whole thing will go. And whether they want a feedback call or not, then you also know whether you missed it or not. Those are a few things I pay attention to when we're in meetings. Then I also get a feeling for whether it'll go further or not.

38:06Dominka: Okay. With the energy they give off, I'd say it's also our job to try to steer it towards the positive. And if they don't want a feedback call: there are usually certain lines. We say: we're in sales, so we really do need another feedback call. You know right away, without a feedback call, that you're not interested? That's probably not the case. Or simply send a link or something, so that in any case … Then I've really done everything to get them back in somewhere. Even if it's a feedback where we already know we'll get a no: better one like that than none at all. I think that's important to give people to take away.

38:56Dominka: Actually still putting a meeting in or asking for a meeting again, even if they've said no once or said it doesn't fit so well right now. Put something in. Tell them: "Then I'll simply send you something for two weeks from now, Friday, same time, if that's okay. You can always reschedule." I'd rather do it that way than put nothing in at all.

39:19Valentina: Yes, and at least you then get a reason you can learn something from, why it didn't work out with this customer. You can analyse it later and look at why we couldn't score with this one. Maybe we'll then change it a bit in the future.

39:37Dominka: Exactly. You learn something from rejections like that too. I also always find it good when you then ask yourself: why did he do that now? How do I do it better next time? Or how do I still get him to come on board?

39:54Dominka: We have a little game, or rather a discussion template, but we call it Game Time, because it's something we play together. I'm going to describe different types of conversation partners to you, the way they show up in a sales meeting or first meeting. Your job is to recognise what type it is, classify them and give a response on how you would handle it. After each description you have three questions: how do you recognise this type?

40:39Valentina: Okay.

40:40Dominka: What works particularly well with this type? And what should you definitely avoid? Try to pack that in somehow. Good. Type 1: listens, asks a lot of critical questions, seems distant. Often asks: "What does this actually get me?"

41:04Valentina: Okay. So with that one I'd maybe try to score with concrete use cases. And of course try to answer every one of the critical questions he asks. Because if he gets the feeling that I'm avoiding a question, that doesn't go down well. So definitely just engage with everything and answer everything. That's my answer.

41:42Dominka: Yes. If someone asked straight out: "What does this actually get me?", then I'd really say: "So what's your wish here? What would you like to get? Then we can fulfil that, or maybe not. Let's see." If he then says: "I'd like 20 new customers a month", I'd say: "That'll be hard with just one BDR. But if you maybe outsource the whole team and we work only for you, then we might manage it." Then he'll probably say: "Costs too much." Yes, sure. That's possibly also a potential solution. A solution in the sense that we don't work together, but that's also a solution.

42:26Valentina: Yes, that's okay too.

42:27Dominka: Type 2: talks a lot, interrupts often, wants to lead the conversation, wants to get to the point quickly and has little patience.

42:40Valentina: Yes, then just don't waffle on, but actually get to the point quickly and try to highlight all the important things. Don't tell lots of extra stuff, only what's really important, so that he's quickly brought up to speed, gets a better picture of what we do, and feels informed.

43:05Dominka: Yes, that's good. These types are always the difficult ones when they become partners. At the start. But if they stick with it longer and really notice that the expertise actually fits and you can do it better than I can, then it's great. But if at some point, for whatever reason, they're unhappy, then it gets really difficult with them again.

43:37Dominka: But the good thing really is: to let people who want to talk a lot actually talk. But then also really cut in every now and then and say: "Hey, I've heard you. Now listen." I'd really do it almost exactly like that: "Yes, all right, I've understood: this and that and that." And then ask another question, so that he asks himself: ah, okay. Because it's often like this: they come in, have ten questions at once, talk and talk, and of the ten questions they've asked, they answer eleven. Themselves, with some potential scenario, where you think: okay, now let's take a break. Here we go. So you really have to be able to say: "Good, good, good, I've understood everything. Now please let me talk."

44:33Valentina: But I also think it's cool, we do that sometimes too, when types like that come into the meeting: that we don't stick to our presentation, but jump a bit from one point to the next.

44:46Dominka: Otherwise you never finish. Otherwise you really never finish. And I think that's okay too. There's a presentation, it has to be there, and of course we send it on afterwards. But if you notice that he actually already understands a lot about it, and he really only has a problem because he had an external partner who hasn't managed it yet, and you already have the answer in the presentation, then …

45:10Dominka: The good thing about having a presentation is that they see: oh, I see, they already know how it works. They didn't just make this up right now, they've already thought about it. That's why I think it's always good to have a presentation. There are people who don't like it or don't do it and think you don't need it. But with things like this, where you're already answering because you know we've thought about it, it's good.

45:37Valentina: Yes, I think so too.

45:38Dominka: It's proof that we professionally had it in mind beforehand.

45:41Dominka: Okay, look: has read everything, knows every term, discusses models a lot, but doesn't decide.

45:51Valentina: Ah, great, the influencer.

45:54Dominka: Yes. Or theorist. What do we do with someone like that?

46:00Valentina: We then try to give him all the info he can pass on to the boss, so that the boss also sees what we do and how we work. Also set up a feedback call and try to get that boss into the meeting. And simply keep the conversation going until we really have the right person in the meeting, I think.

46:25Dominka: Yes, that's true. You have to somehow get him to connect us with the people who have a say.

46:33Valentina: We've had meetings like that too, where we dealt with these influencers. That's the first level you have to get past. But once you've won them over, they'll bring the boss along to the meeting too. It's not the goal to set a meeting with an influencer, but sometimes that's just how it is, because they're a kind of filter for topics like this, and sometimes that's okay too. I think we recently had a project that started where we first talked to an influencer.

47:07Dominka: What you should definitely avoid in conversations like that: giving them the feeling that they're not as important as their decision-maker. Absolutely not. Because they're actually the ones who'll probably work very closely with us later on.

47:28Dominka: I have a fourth type, and this one does the following: answers evasively, postpones decisions, seems unsure, often says: "Let's talk again later."

47:46Valentina: Just stay on it, try to set a meeting so we don't lose sight of each other, even if it's a loose contact. We don't have to talk on the phone every two weeks, and it doesn't have to go straight to a signature. But that you simply keep each other in view, that you're in contact and keep the conversation going.

48:09Dominka: Yes. Just don't avoid sending him another meeting invite. Follow up, stay visible.

48:21Dominka: Good, Valentina, we've reached the end of our episode. We're well on time. Today we've seen how clearly the ICP should be pinned down and defined in advance. The meeting is only there to build the relationship, not to qualify again whether they're a fit for us. We've already done that beforehand. It has to be that way, otherwise they wouldn't be in the meeting at all. But in the meeting, then captivate, understand, and keep following up after the meeting, and then everything's actually fine, right?

Valentina: Yes.

49:03Dominka: What else is important to say? Always be in a good mood and try to radiate that in their direction if they're sceptical or maybe get a bit unfriendly at some point. Then, from my point of view, you can also say: hey, we're happy to end it here. But if they're simply low energy, try to lift them up with your own energy. And never expect: this has to be the perfect pitch now, this has to be sold right in this call, they have to say yes now. No, there's really time for that later too. It's important to give them all the info and leave a good feeling.

49:55Dominka: I also always find it nice when you don't end up working together and they then say: "Hey, you really did that very well. We felt well looked after on your side." That's already something where you think: okay, good, they'll come back at some point.

50:09Valentina: We had that recently too. Still not signed, but …

50:14Dominka: We're just waiting a bit longer. And that's important too: patience.

50:17Valentina: Exactly. For me, I think, that's the most important thing. You always expect that you'll close that one deal you believe in, and then it doesn't happen. But if you're patient, they'll come with time. As long as you know you've got hold of the right person and given your best in these meetings and in the calls before them, there's only one thing left: simply be patient. And that's it.

50:43Dominka: That's a nice way to finish. Thank you for your time.

50:48Valentina: Thank you.

50:50Dominka: Dear viewers, thank you very much for listening and watching. Subscribe to our channel on Spotify and YouTube. Follow us on LinkedIn, Valentina and I are both there, we'd love to connect with you. And if you have more questions about what could be done better in cold calling and in meetings, feel free to get in touch in the comments. And if you're shy, just get in touch with us directly, we're happy to answer and maybe help you build the whole thing nicely in pre-sales too. Just like we did. Valentina, bye.

Valentina: Bye.